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Paiste 2002 or Signature crash?

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#21
mgdrummer

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I've played both over the last 26 years.  As someone already said, the Signatures are more refined and "pretty" sounding.  The 2002's are the quintessential classic rock cymbals, can't go wrong with them.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree with Signatures being any louder than other cymbals.  Brighter?  Absolutely!  But it's physically impossible for an 18" Signature full crash to be louder than an 18" 2002 crash, there's no way that either could move more air than the other.  It's a trick of the ear: we perceive higher frequencies to be louder than lower frequencies.  Since the Signatures are brighter & clearer on the top end, that must be what everyone is perceiving as "louder".


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#22
hector48

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Thanks for all your replies.

Since the suggestions are mixed, I decided to try a few used ones from eBay, Reverb, GC, etc.

I have a 16" fast signature and 17" signature precision incoming.

Also, a 16" and 17" 2002.

Couldn't find the 602, masters, or dark energy for a "reasonable" price, even used.

By reasonable, I mean, if they are going to cost a bit more than Zildjian K's, I'll just stay with the Zildjians.

Really, no complaints on the Z's, just wanted to try something different.


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#23
jtpaistegeist

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Those should give you a good idea about the Paiste sound and feel.  I have a full set of the Sig Precision cymbals and they are great.  They open up very easily, have good sustain and great bells.  These are my go-to for live rock settings along with some Rude Thin Crashes.  The precisions remind me alot of the older Sound Formula Series. 


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#24
Balance

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Sig fulls are brighter but lower pitched, much quicker response and more stick definition. Modern 2002's are higher pitched but warmer. The projection that you get from both these cymbals makes them unsuitable for the types of music OP described.

 

Paistes are better suited for heavy music, heavy metal, hard rock etc. From what you described, you would be much better off with regular A's. I would keep the A Customs, mix in some regular A's.

 

This is coming from a guy who started out with z's, then 2002's to sig fulls and now I want A customs. Still like Paistes just that Zildjians give a tighter sound. It feels like the Paistes need to be played in large arenas.


Edited by Balance, 18 May 2018 - 10:18 AM.

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#25
mgdrummer

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Sig fulls are brighter but lower pitched, much quicker response and more stick definition. Modern 2002's are higher pitched but warmer. The projection that you get from both these cymbals makes them unsuitable for the types of music OP described.

Paistes are better suited for heavy music, heavy metal, hard rock etc. From what you described, you would be much better off with regular A's. I would keep the A Customs, mix in some regular A's.

This is coming from a guy who started out with z's, then 2002's to sig fulls and now I want A customs. Still like Paistes just that Zildjians give a tighter sound. It feels like the Paistes need to be played in large arenas.


So much misinformation and misunderstanding in one post. Have you not heard any of the Paiste lines released in the last 15 years or more? Dark Energy, Twentys, Masters, Modern Essentials, heck even the Traditionals that came out in the 90’s? Tons of darker, complex options available from Paiste.
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#26
AtlantaDrumGuy

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Sigs can be quite tasteful. Paul Liem and Russ Kunkel often use them...and they both sound great. That said...I’m still of the opinion that the right Zildjians won’t be outmatched. It’s a personal preference, but most of the basic Zildjian models sound great (to me). And many of those basic models (whether A, A Custom, K, etc) work very well in many genres.
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#27
Balance

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Sig fulls are brighter but lower pitched, much quicker response and more stick definition. Modern 2002's are higher pitched but warmer. The projection that you get from both these cymbals makes them unsuitable for the types of music OP described.

Paistes are better suited for heavy music, heavy metal, hard rock etc. From what you described, you would be much better off with regular A's. I would keep the A Customs, mix in some regular A's.

This is coming from a guy who started out with z's, then 2002's to sig fulls and now I want A customs. Still like Paistes just that Zildjians give a tighter sound. It feels like the Paistes need to be played in large arenas.


So much misinformation and misunderstanding in one post. Have you not heard any of the Paiste lines released in the last 15 years or more? Dark Energy, Twentys, Masters, Modern Essentials, heck even the Traditionals that came out in the 90’s? Tons of darker, complex options available from Paiste.

 

 

And what about the ones you mentioned? They are simply dark and/or trashy Paiste models, does not mean they are warm and controlled. I have played all those you have mentioned, they have the same characteristics of Paiste outside of the dark/bright paradigm, wild overtones, longer projection all else equal, not as focused as Zildjian A's. Not a good/bad thing, just depends what you're into. The OP outlined what types of music he's playing and he's about to make a mistake if he does not make an informed decision.


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#28
Bri6366

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I've owned plenty of both and they are both great lines of crashes. The 2002 Crash and Sig Full Crash are very similar. The Sig Full Crash is a bit more refined and transparent than the 2002 Crash. For the money they are similar enough that I prefer the 2002. The 2002 is higher pitched, but with a little more body in the mix. 

 

A great suggestion above is the Dark Energy. It is like a 2002 mated with a K Zildjian and the DE is the offspring. It has that Paiste shimmer, but it isn't as in your face as the 2002 and lower pitched than the Sig. 


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#29
Nacci

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I wholeheartedly disagree with Signatures being any louder than other cymbals.  Brighter?  Absolutely!  But it's physically impossible for an 18" Signature full crash to be louder than an 18" 2002 crash, there's no way that either could move more air than the other.  

 

 

Oh, no?  So no 18" crash is louder than another?  Every 18" crash on the planet is the exact same volume?  Doesn't matter how aggressively they have been lathed and hammered to increase the surface area.....all exactly the same?


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#30
mgdrummer

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I wholeheartedly disagree with Signatures being any louder than other cymbals. Brighter? Absolutely! But it's physically impossible for an 18" Signature full crash to be louder than an 18" 2002 crash, there's no way that either could move more air than the other.



Oh, no? So no 18" crash is louder than another? Every 18" crash on the planet is the exact same volume? Doesn't matter how aggressively they have been lathed and hammered to increase the surface area.....all exactly the same?

Never said they’re ALL exactly the same but we’re talking the difference between the 2002’s and Signatures. I guarantee the next time I’ve got my ProTools rig set up and I record a Signature crash and a 2002 crash that nether will have a greater peak in the wave form. A DB meter would not sense one being louder than the other, either.
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#31
Nacci

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I wholeheartedly disagree with Signatures being any louder than other cymbals. Brighter? Absolutely! But it's physically impossible for an 18" Signature full crash to be louder than an 18" 2002 crash, there's no way that either could move more air than the other.



Oh, no? So no 18" crash is louder than another? Every 18" crash on the planet is the exact same volume? Doesn't matter how aggressively they have been lathed and hammered to increase the surface area.....all exactly the same?

Never said they’re ALL exactly the same but we’re talking the difference between the 2002’s and Signatures. I guarantee the next time I’ve got my ProTools rig set up and I record a Signature crash and a 2002 crash that nether will have a greater peak in the wave form. A DB meter would not sense one being louder than the other, either.

 

 

 

Ok, I got a little mixed up.  After I said that The Sigs were the loudest cymbals I have ever owned I thought you said:

 

"I wholeheartedly disagree with Signatures being any louder than other cymbals.  Brighter?  Absolutely!  But it's physically impossible for an 18" Signature full crash to be louder than an 18" 2002 crash, there's no way that either could move more air than the other."


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#32
mgdrummer

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Sig fulls are brighter but lower pitched, much quicker response and more stick definition. Modern 2002's are higher pitched but warmer. The projection that you get from both these cymbals makes them unsuitable for the types of music OP described.

Paistes are better suited for heavy music, heavy metal, hard rock etc. From what you described, you would be much better off with regular A's. I would keep the A Customs, mix in some regular A's.

This is coming from a guy who started out with z's, then 2002's to sig fulls and now I want A customs. Still like Paistes just that Zildjians give a tighter sound. It feels like the Paistes need to be played in large arenas.


So much misinformation and misunderstanding in one post. Have you not heard any of the Paiste lines released in the last 15 years or more? Dark Energy, Twentys, Masters, Modern Essentials, heck even the Traditionals that came out in the 90’s? Tons of darker, complex options available from Paiste.

 

 

And what about the ones you mentioned? They are simply dark and/or trashy Paiste models, does not mean they are warm and controlled. I have played all those you have mentioned, they have the same characteristics of Paiste outside of the dark/bright paradigm, wild overtones, longer projection all else equal, not as focused as Zildjian A's. Not a good/bad thing, just depends what you're into. The OP outlined what types of music he's playing and he's about to make a mistake if he does not make an informed decision.

 

 

The blanket statement that Paiste's are suited for heavy music and for playing in arenas is simply untrue.  The OP is in no danger of "making a mistake" in using any of the Paiste's they're researching in any of the situations they outlined.  Many of us have used the Signatures, 2002's, etc. for decades, in fact I've personally used them from large clubs/festivals all the way down to small coffee house/restaurant gigs.  Just as I've also used Twenties, Masters, Dark Energies, 602's, Modern Essentials, Dimensions, RUDE's, Sound Creations, Sound Formulas, etc.  Your perception of the Paiste product line & their applications are just not accurate or helpful.


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#33
DrumKeys

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Sig fulls are brighter but lower pitched, much quicker response and more stick definition. Modern 2002's are higher pitched but warmer. The projection that you get from both these cymbals makes them unsuitable for the types of music OP described.

Paistes are better suited for heavy music, heavy metal, hard rock etc. From what you described, you would be much better off with regular A's. I would keep the A Customs, mix in some regular A's.

This is coming from a guy who started out with z's, then 2002's to sig fulls and now I want A customs. Still like Paistes just that Zildjians give a tighter sound. It feels like the Paistes need to be played in large arenas.


So much misinformation and misunderstanding in one post. Have you not heard any of the Paiste lines released in the last 15 years or more? Dark Energy, Twentys, Masters, Modern Essentials, heck even the Traditionals that came out in the 90’s? Tons of darker, complex options available from Paiste.

 

 

And what about the ones you mentioned? They are simply dark and/or trashy Paiste models, does not mean they are warm and controlled. I have played all those you have mentioned, they have the same characteristics of Paiste outside of the dark/bright paradigm, wild overtones, longer projection all else equal, not as focused as Zildjian A's. Not a good/bad thing, just depends what you're into. The OP outlined what types of music he's playing and he's about to make a mistake if he does not make an informed decision.

 

 

The blanket statement that Paiste's are suited for heavy music and for playing in arenas is simply untrue.  The OP is in no danger of "making a mistake" in using any of the Paiste's they're researching in any of the situations they outlined.  Many of us have used the Signatures, 2002's, etc. for decades, in fact I've personally used them from large clubs/festivals all the way down to small coffee house/restaurant gigs.  Just as I've also used Twenties, Masters, Dark Energies, 602's, Modern Essentials, Dimensions, RUDE's, Sound Creations, Sound Formulas, etc.  Your perception of the Paiste product line & their applications are just not accurate or helpful.

 

 

I agree.  Just so much variation - bright/dark, soft/loud in the Paiste lineup. 

 

And while I agree that 2002's and sigs lean to the brighter/louder side of Paiste's offerings it's interesting to note that even Paiste markets the 2002 (medium soft to loud) as being louder than sigs (soft to medium loud). My personal experience tells me the same thing but everyone hears things differently I suppose.

 

Maybe Nacci was a little too jacked up on caffeine on that gig he got scolded by his bandmates? j/k Nacci   :icon_e_wink:

 

Anyway, hopefully the OP finds something to his liking...lots to choose from.


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#34
hector48

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Does anyone have any experience with the 900 series?

Not really the color sound, but the traditional type finish.


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#35
mgdrummer

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Does anyone have any experience with the 900 series?
Not really the color sound, but the traditional type finish.


I have a set of the Colorsounds but I got a chance to play a few regular finish 900’s that Tim Shahady had at the Paiste booth this last weekend. They sound great, far better than the early 90’s Alphas that I started on. They feel like they have more “give” than the 2002’s, closer to the feel of Giant Beats. They sound far more expensive than they are, and Tim told me they are made in Switzerland and have more handwork than the German made Alphas. They manage to still come in less expensive than the Alphas that they replaced. Between the 900’s and the PST7’s they have some fantastic sounding inexpensive cymbals to chose from.
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