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#21
Elvis

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Elvis referred to Rogers copy lugs and tom mounts, but they were closer to Pearl copies on both counts. To be fair though, the Pearl was a copy of Rogers in the first place.

Exactly.
Pearl used the same hardware, but it was all based on earlier Rogers stuff.
The only difference I ever saw between "Pearl" and "CB-700" gear was that the lack of the Pearl script logo on the CB-700 hardware.
Funny you should bring up Maxwin, too.
Back then, it was the same kit as the CB-700, just the name was different.
My CB-700 bass drum came with two logo heads. Tama Imperialstar and Maxwin!
I actually played the Imperialstar head on the batter side becuzse I was convinced, at the time, that it was the better of the two heads.
One day I traded them around and found out how wrong I'd been. ;) :D


Elvis

Edited by Elvis, 25 September 2009 - 12:04 AM.

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#22
Elvis

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Elvis,

not 1990's, more like 1981-82, as mentioned above. 1990's CB lugs looked like this:

[attachment=53956:CB_lugs.jpg]

They are the ones that were on the Internationale series, etc. Lugs from the 1970's were knockoffs of contemporary Pearl lugs.

I had drums from all three eras, with each of the three types of lugs. The drums with the wristwatch lugs were the best, as good as Tama Swingstars of the same era, though Tama had the better tom mount system. CB had Pearl-type arms in the early 80's, but they were much thinner and solid rods instead of pipes. Impossible to find parts for these days.

...and of course, I'm going to be able to tell what they look like, from the BACK SIDE. :scratch:
(got any pics with the lugs instaled?)

Look, I've been down this road with others before. I never saw what you call a "wristwatch lug" until the 90's.
All of the new (and newer) generic kits I remember seeing during the 80's all had the Rogers Beavertail knock-off lugs on them, including my own kit.
Maybe it was just the kits we were getting in the stores back then, I don't know, but I don't remember that lug from that time.
Sorry if that makes you feel bad.
BTW, the CB tom arms you mentioned are the same ones that were on my kit. That's the knock-off Rogers Swivo tom mount I mentioned earlier.


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#23
bermuda

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Keep your eyes open, though guys. CB-700 made the first "free-floating" system snare drum.


Indeed they did (actually invented by Charlie Cordes) and I had a brass FF from 1985 until recently. A very nice drum now on display at Todd Trent's Drum Oasis.

Posted Image
(me in 1985 with the snare, a Simmons SDS9 kit and Meinl cymbals - I was one of the first US endorsers!)

A little trivia: CB stands for Charles Bruno, whose company Charles Bruno & Sons was a major U.S. distributor of musical instruments until they eventually merged with Kaman.

Bermuda

Edited by bermuda, 25 September 2009 - 12:29 AM.

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#24
Big Beat

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Makes me feel bad? Are we perhaps projecting just a wee bit there? :)


Anyhow, here you go.

1970's: Pearl knock-off lugs, hex tom mounts, Rogers Swivo type hex arms with knuckles. Very basic & generic for this era imports.

[attachment=54000:CB1.jpg]

Early 1980's: distinctive original design "wristwatch" lugs, semi-Pearl type tom arms/mounts (original design, straight solid rods, not exact Pearl clones. Not the hex type anymore, either. Rare.). Cheaper line (concert toms) had woodgrain contact papered insides, better ones were plain unfinished luan. CB's heyday for quality.

[attachment=54001:CB2.jpg]

Late 1980's / early 1990's: original design "square center" lugs. Mounts and arms now totally identical to Pearl. The most commonly found CB's; the Internationale series from this era were pretty popular. Still decent quality and slightly less generic than most contemporary stencils. Shells now of cheaper, thinner luan and the "square center" lugs are more brittle than the "wristwatch" era stuff.

[attachment=54002:CB3.jpg]

Late 1990's: back to 1970's style lugs, Pearl clone tom arms & mounts. Drums now labeled CB Percussion instead of CB700. Very basic & generic again, no different from any other stencil.

[attachment=54003:CB4.jpg]

Edited by Big Beat, 25 September 2009 - 09:58 AM.

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#25
Elvis

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Big Beat,

Thanks for posting the pictures.
The red tom looks exactly like the drums from the kit I had back in the 80's.
Even though I bought mine used, I did see some of those, new, for sale during the 80's.
This could be, yet another, case of fuzzy timelines due to overlapping changes...and I'm thinking the Japanese were worse at this than the Americans were. :rolleyes:
The only difference I can see were mine had a nice blue wrap finish and had both heads/hoops installed.
I've never seen what you call the "square center" lugs....at least I can't recall ever seeing those before.
And yes, about 10-15 years ago, "CB-700" was renamed "CB Percussion".
Something tells me some minor legality took place to warrent the name change.

Re: tom arms.

Could you possibly show a pic of the early 80's tom arms you mentioned?
Mine were the "hex type" you mentioned.

BTW, where are you getting this information from?



Elvis

Edited by Elvis, 25 September 2009 - 03:34 PM.

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#26
Elvis

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Oh yeah, and one other thing...

With exception to the depth of the snare drum in the bottom pic of your reply, Big Beat, notice how the shell never changes in all the pictures of the snare drums you posted.
Granted, there were obviously lug design changes, but everything else about those snare drum is almost exactly the same.
This was the point I was trying to convey, in an earlier post, when I wrote, "The fact of whether or not they are a 'CB-700 snare drum' really doesn't make much difference, because its all the same drum.".
Just wanted to clarify that.

Elvis

Edited by Elvis, 25 September 2009 - 03:41 PM.

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#27
wayne

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Does this mean that CB had nothing to do with Pearl or Tama...ever? :unsure:
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#28
Big Beat

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Elvis,

my info comes from having repaired at least a dozen various older CB sets over the years. The pics I just pulled up with a quick eBay search. I do have one of those 80's CB arms, but it's in storage across town. If I remember next week when I'm down there, I'll dig it up and photograph it.

Wayne,

CB stands for Charles Bruno, who was a major distributor. It was a house brand like any other, just a bit more popular than most, due to Bruno being so big. There might have been a Pearl connection of some sort, but I don't know the details.
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#29
FloydZKing

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Good work on the pics Big Beat, well sussed. I remember those thinner tom arms with the funky c-shaped angle adjusters. I never knew they were solid.

To me, the question of CB700's relationship to Pearl in the early 80s is interesting. I'd like to know because it seems like an interesting situation if Pearl was largely supplying the competition. Seems like all that sort of petered out once Pearl went with the Export concept and de-emphasized Maxwin. By the 90s, anything that looks like old pearl stuff was pretty clearly not coming from Pearl. Those designs just gradually grew to be generic, and ubiquitous. <($5 word - ching!)

Just judging from the gear itself, Pearl seemed to still doing a bunch of OEM work well into the early 80s, but maybe there were copies, licensing deals or even cases of old Pearl dies were sold off and used by others to build stencil drums. I surely don't know, just speculating.

Looking at the era I knew CB-700 from (78-82ish), they certainly looked like they shared a lot of parts with Pearl's drums. The stands and pedals were even more-or-less slightly outdated Pearl designs. Late 70s Pearl hardware seemed to become early 80s CB700 gear. It seemed like whenever Pearl would upgrade their name stuff, they would pass on the old stuff to their lower lines and Maxwin, and it would seem anyway, to OEM stencil makers. That is if they weren't the OEMs themselves.

Edited by FloydZKing, 27 September 2009 - 03:58 AM.

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#30
wayne

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The drum i bought says CB700 Percussion and the metal shell is different from the pics.The person selling it says it is very heavy and it was made in Taiwan?,,I,ll get some pics up when it arrives.Thx for all the assistance.
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#31
PJD

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There was a guy near me trying to sell one of these on Craigslist for $75 for the longest time. I can't see spending $75 on one of these when i could get an Acro for close to that on the right day.
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#32
wayne

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Thats true,except the drum im waiting for i believe is one of the Marc 700,s.I only paid 20 bucks for it plus i didn,t want to ask to many questions and raise flags :drunken:
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#33
Elvis

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BigBeat,

Look forward to seeing the pic of that arm.
Best bet is to e-mail me. I haven't been making it to the library as much as I used to, lately, and this connection at home is s-l-o-w.
Thus I tend not to surf this site as much as I used to, but rather, check out the email alerts I get.
E-mail me the pics, or create a post and share them with everyone and e-mail me the link to the thread, or just paste 'em up here and I'll get the alert.
A few designs are springing to mind, so it will be interesting to see whether or not I'm aleady aware of the arm you're referring to.

gundorps@yahoo.com
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Wayne,

If the snare drum you bought is a "Marc" CB-700, then it'll be a parallel throw-off version.
That's a more intricate snare activation system.
Orchestral snare drums tend to be Parallel (or "dual") throw-off.
That's the type seen on Ludwig "Super-Sensitive" snare drums, too.
If its all in good working order, I'd $20 is a good deal.
However, if it turns out to be a regular ol' snare drum, and it still feels heavier than normal, be aware than one can get thin Brass and Bronze shells for these types of drums.
Later Ludwig 300 series ("Rocker") snare drums were offered in all 3 types: Steel, Brass and Bronze.
(plus, I've seen the blanks before).
Could be someone found this out and swapped shells.
Then you can tell everyone about your "deal-of-the-century" $20 Brass/Bronze shelled snare drum. :D ;)
---------------------------------------------
Floyd.Z.King wrote:

Looking at the era I knew CB-700 from (78-82ish), they certainly looked like they shared a lot of parts with Pearl's drums. The stands and pedals were even more-or-less slightly outdated Pearl designs. Late 70s Pearl hardware seemed to become early 80s CB700 gear. It seemed like whenever Pearl would upgrade their name stuff, they would pass on the old stuff to their lower lines and Maxwin, and it would seem anyway, to OEM stencil makers. That is if they weren't the OEMs themselves that is.

Good point.
Based on my own experiences, I would have to say I agree.



Elvis

Edited by Elvis, 26 September 2009 - 10:20 PM.

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