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Die-cast VS Triple-flanged

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#1
Stickinthemud

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Still learning, so bear with me here.

To hear people talk, I get the impression that die-cast hoops are the way to go - more resonance, stronger rim shots, etc., but I have seen some pretty expensive and well-regarded snares with triple-flanged hoops. Are they just skimping on the hoops, or are there situations in which triple-flanged hoops would be preferable?

I can see how triple-flanged hoops would be easier on your sticks if you do a lot of hard rim shots, but that's the only advantage that occurs to me.

What say you? Are die-cast hoops really "all that"? If so, why the triple flanges on $600 snares?
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#2
rondrums51

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Die cast hoops do one thing very well: They are totally rigid and inflexible, so they really hold the head tension, and they give the drum a very strong fundamental note.

Remember how Art Blakey used to do all those "pitch bends" on the floor tom and snare? You could hear the pitch bend so clearly because of those Gretsch die cast hoops. Try that with regular flanged hoops, and it doesn't work nearly as well, because they flex when you put pressure on them.
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#3
RickP

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I prefer the sonic qualities of triple flange hoops, the drums sound more open and resonant IMHO. Playing rim shots on toms with triple flange hoops sound so much better to my ear. The rim click sound and rim shot sound of diecast hoops on a snare is not as pleasing to my ear. The rim click with. Diecast hoop sounds almost like.a clack rather than a click . Rondrums is correct about diecast hoops holding their tuning very well .
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#4
RyanR

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It's all preferences.... and there's a whole range of hoops available. 1.6mm flanged, 2.3mm, 3mm, diecast.... even heavier diecast.... double flanged, single flanged, S-hoops, etc.

Less hoop gives a more open tone. More hoop reigns it in.

More lugs steal tone from drums.

Some prefer an open sound, some don't.

Then there's heads and snare wires.

On a ten lugged snare drum, I say you need the least hoop out there. 1.6mm is the way to go on a Supra. Ludwig ships them with a 2.3mm.

After 50 years, the hoops on my Pioneer (six lugs) snare were going hexagon. I replaced with 2.3mm and she's wonderful.

-Ryan
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#5
RickP

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Ryan,
Don't even get us started on the sonic differences between brass triple flange and steel triple flange hoops ( I prefer brass)
Zinc diecast hoops versus Aluminum diecast hoops like Yamaha makes ( I prefer the Yamaha aluminum diecast if I had to use diecast).
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#6
Bunnyman

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I prefer COB over either.
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#7
frankmott

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More mass (die-cast) equals less resonance, and a perceived better attack. Cast are harder to tune because they're less forgiving, but do hold a tuning better. I kind of like them on snares, particularly when tuned high, but I don't like how they sort of kill toms.

Oh, and cast hoops look cool! (which is probably why a lot of guys like them.)
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#8
gwbasley

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There are subtelties to the differences that each drum shell speaks to, but to generalize, die cast rims tend to dry out the sound whereas stamped rims tend to resonate with the shell. The previous posts have all made good points about the material used , number of lugs, shell construction...the list goes on. I keep my Supra "stock", rims, heads, snares and all, because I bought it because it gets "that sound" so why change it. On the other hand, I set up an Acrolite for playing small venues, with die cast rims, sound control rings under both heads, and a 20 strand snare with the middle 4 removed, and I ended up with a very dry and low volume sound. I use this as an example of how you might think about and use die cast rims to tailor the drum sound that you are looking for.
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#9
Stickinthemud

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Lots of great responses. Thanks for the input!
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#10
Cauldronics

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Ryan,
Don't even get us started on the sonic differences between brass triple flange and steel triple flange hoops ( I prefer brass)
Zinc diecast hoops versus Aluminum diecast hoops like Yamaha makes ( I prefer the Yamaha aluminum diecast if I had to use diecast).


Well... I'd like to affirm and know some differences between all those, if you don't mind getting into them.

It turns out I have drums with steel, aluminum and maybe one with brass hoops. All are triple flanged.. wait, except for the sticksaver (?) on the Studio King.
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#11
Bigsecret

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In other words, die cast are not better than triple flange - just different.
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#12
Bunnyman

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Ryan,
Don't even get us started on the sonic differences between brass triple flange and steel triple flange hoops ( I prefer brass)
Zinc diecast hoops versus Aluminum diecast hoops like Yamaha makes ( I prefer the Yamaha aluminum diecast if I had to use diecast).


Well... I'd like to affirm and know some differences between all those, if you don't mind getting into them.

It turns out I have drums with steel, aluminum and maybe one with brass hoops. All are triple flanged.. wait, except for the sticksaver (?) on the Studio King.

Stick savers are triple flanged, just differently. Stick choppers are double flanged.
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#13
jeannie

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My only experience with die cast was with my Renowns, and I was really excited about trying it, and they sounded good esp the bass and snare. But the toms were not nearly so lively as a pair of orphan Cat maples I had with triple flange...and I went back to that, happy that at least I'd tried the die cast.

They also make drums heavier, I think.
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#14
RickP

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Ryan,
Don't even get us started on the sonic differences between brass triple flange and steel triple flange hoops ( I prefer brass)
Zinc diecast hoops versus Aluminum diecast hoops like Yamaha makes ( I prefer the Yamaha aluminum diecast if I had to use diecast).


Well... I'd like to affirm and know some differences between all those, if you don't mind getting into them.

It turns out I have drums with steel, aluminum and maybe one with brass hoops. All are triple flanged.. wait, except for the sticksaver (?) on the Studio King.


Hey Cauld,
From my experience with drums I have owned that had these hoops , the COB triple flange hoops have a very different lower pitched rim click, they are softer than steel and not quite as sharp as the steel rims when playing rim clicks and rim shots.

In regards to diecast hoops, i have own 5 Gretsch sets with zinc diecast hoops and a Yamaha set with their aluminum diecast hoops. Chrome plating sticks to zinc much better than aluminum ( think of all those pitting supras) . The zinc diecast are heavier and therefore reduce resonance and create a more focussed tone than triple flange hoops. Playing rim shots on zinc diecast hoops gives more of a clacky sound than the timbale like tone you can achieve with triple flange hoops. The Yamaha aluminum diecast hoops are much more open than the zinc hoops, not as much as triple flange hoops but better than the zinc. They hold their tuning well like the zinc diecast hoops and doesn't inhibit resonance as much as the zinc diecast hoops. Please note the zinc hooped Gretsch toms are still plenty resonant with their zinc diecast hoops but not as much as they would with triple flange hoops or aluminum diecast hoops.
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#15
GeneZ

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If my memory serves me well...

I found the diecast tunes the head tension more evenly. When using a Drum Dial, I found less variation around the head... even in between the lugs.
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#16
Cauldronics

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Ryan,
Don't even get us started on the sonic differences between brass triple flange and steel triple flange hoops ( I prefer brass)
Zinc diecast hoops versus Aluminum diecast hoops like Yamaha makes ( I prefer the Yamaha aluminum diecast if I had to use diecast).


Well... I'd like to affirm and know some differences between all those, if you don't mind getting into them.

It turns out I have drums with steel, aluminum and maybe one with brass hoops. All are triple flanged.. wait, except for the sticksaver (?) on the Studio King.


Hey Cauld,
From my experience with drums I have owned that had these hoops , the COB triple flange hoops have a very different lower pitched rim click, they are softer than steel and not quite as sharp as the steel rims when playing rim clicks and rim shots.

In regards to diecast hoops, i have own 5 Gretsch sets with zinc diecast hoops and a Yamaha set with their aluminum diecast hoops. Chrome plating sticks to zinc much better than aluminum ( think of all those pitting supras) . The zinc diecast are heavier and therefore reduce resonance and create a more focussed tone than triple flange hoops. Playing rim shots on zinc diecast hoops gives more of a clacky sound than the timbale like tone you can achieve with triple flange hoops. The Yamaha aluminum diecast hoops are much more open than the zinc hoops, not as much as triple flange hoops but better than the zinc. They hold their tuning well like the zinc diecast hoops and doesn't inhibit resonance as much as the zinc diecast hoops. Please note the zinc hooped Gretsch toms are still plenty resonant with their zinc diecast hoops but not as much as they would with triple flange hoops or aluminum diecast hoops.


Thanks, Rick. That's the compare and contrast I was looking for.

I had a Craviotto snare with diecast hoops, but removed them because they choked the tone too much. It wasn't a good combination on that 13x5, but triple flanged opened up the drum. I'm thinking the Studio King must have COB hoops given the cross stick (rim click) and rimshot sound you describe. Both are lower in pitch compared to the 14x5 Supra I have. Not sure what the hoops on the acrolite are made of, but that drum's tone is distinctly aluminum so I don't know how much a steel, alum, or brass hoop would change that. I read somewhere that the hoops on the Yamaha Maple Custom (not the newer ones) were not standard steel, but a zinc aluminum blend? They were also some kind of hybrid triple flanged/diecast design. I'm probably not remembering all of that correctly, but the info is hard to find online.

Hoop experimentation is worth getting into. Another frontier I haven't explored much that could yield some useful results, and the point of this thread.

EDIT: Wanted to mention that when I took off a set of Sonor Phonic rims I noticed they were very light and flexible. Don't know if that's what ferro-manganese steel is like, or if they're aluminum, but they were noticeably different from all others.

Edited by Cauldronics, 02 December 2012 - 11:59 PM.

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#17
dimag333

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Great discussion. I found that cast hoops do focus a Tom well, my star classic maple had die cast an they were perfect. I love the cob hoops on my slingerland and could see how sat would choke them. I am excited to hear the cast hoops on my USA maple when it shows up
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#18
Jeff Dowder

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What Cauldronics, it’s worth experimenting with. Some snares do better with certain kinds of hoops. I think drums do sound a bit more open with triple-flanged hoops, which I like myself. If you hit a triple-flange hoop by itself, it will ring like a bell. A die-cast hoop will just clank. Not that that is a bad thing, depending on what you are going for. Die-cast might not be the best choice if the edge is less than flat, since they are less flexible the triple-flange. Don’t forget wood hoops – just the ticket sometimes. Rim shot and cross stick sound is, well, woody. I like ‘em.
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#19
gwbasley

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Ryan,
Don't even get us started on the sonic differences between brass triple flange and steel triple flange hoops ( I prefer brass)
Zinc diecast hoops versus Aluminum diecast hoops like Yamaha makes ( I prefer the Yamaha aluminum diecast if I had to use diecast).


Well... I'd like to affirm and know some differences between all those, if you don't mind getting into them.

It turns out I have drums with steel, aluminum and maybe one with brass hoops. All are triple flanged.. wait, except for the sticksaver (?) on the Studio King.


Hey Cauld,
From my experience with drums I have owned that had these hoops , the COB triple flange hoops have a very different lower pitched rim click, they are softer than steel and not quite as sharp as the steel rims when playing rim clicks and rim shots.

In regards to diecast hoops, i have own 5 Gretsch sets with zinc diecast hoops and a Yamaha set with their aluminum diecast hoops. Chrome plating sticks to zinc much better than aluminum ( think of all those pitting supras) . The zinc diecast are heavier and therefore reduce resonance and create a more focussed tone than triple flange hoops. Playing rim shots on zinc diecast hoops gives more of a clacky sound than the timbale like tone you can achieve with triple flange hoops. The Yamaha aluminum diecast hoops are much more open than the zinc hoops, not as much as triple flange hoops but better than the zinc. They hold their tuning well like the zinc diecast hoops and doesn't inhibit resonance as much as the zinc diecast hoops. Please note the zinc hooped Gretsch toms are still plenty resonant with their zinc diecast hoops but not as much as they would with triple flange hoops or aluminum diecast hoops.


Thanks, Rick. That's the compare and contrast I was looking for.

I had a Craviotto snare with diecast hoops, but removed them because they choked the tone too much. It wasn't a good combination on that 13x5, but triple flanged opened up the drum. I'm thinking the Studio King must have COB hoops given the cross stick (rim click) and rimshot sound you describe. Both are lower in pitch compared to the 14x5 Supra I have. Not sure what the hoops on the acrolite are made of, but that drum's tone is distinctly aluminum so I don't know how much a steel, alum, or brass hoop would change that. I read somewhere that the hoops on the Yamaha Maple Custom (not the newer ones) were not standard steel, but a zinc aluminum blend? They were also some kind of hybrid triple flanged/diecast design. I'm probably not remembering all of that correctly, but the info is hard to find online.

Hoop experimentation is worth getting into. Another frontier I haven't explored much that could yield some useful results, and the point of this thread.

EDIT: Wanted to mention that when I took off a set of Sonor Phonic rims I noticed they were very light and flexible. Don't know if that's what ferro-manganese steel is like, or if they're aluminum, but they were noticeably different from all others.

Don't forget, in your Supra / Acro comparison you also involve 10 lugs compared to 8 lugs on a 14' shell. I believe that the die cast rims can improve the 8 lug drum due to the longer span between lugs. The 10 lug Supra tensions evenly with the triple flanges. Oh, here is somethin noone has mentioned, if you convert from TF to DC your lightweight snare will suddenly weigh a TON...I'm sure that this factors into the sound as well!
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#20
lazer

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on my 50's olympic 3x 14 6 lug piccolo snare ,the die cast made a big improvement in tuning and tone of the snare over the original double flanged top hoop

generally I prefer triple flange on toms

still have not got into wood rims yet ,pretty costly for an experiment :mellow:
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