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#1
JBernie

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The new Ludwig Atlas tom mount is getting a lot of talk on one of the NAMM threads. But I am very interested in this product, so I thought that I'd start another thread that's only about this new product.

Me..... I love the look and the idea. But I have my doubts, even though I am not qualified to have any. I love my RIMS mount (real Gauger RIMS, by the way). Not only that, but I know from first hand experience that whether they are real Gauger, Ludwig Vibrabands, or any other manufactures version...... There is a HUGE NOTICABLE difference in sound between one of those and a drum mounted on a mount that bolted right to the shell.

Having said that, as interesting as this is, it's still bolted to the shell. I know, I know, that actual clamp is isolated from the hardware bolted to the shell. But I theorize that the stress/flex/force on the shell is still present compared to a drum suspended by the hoop.

Your thoughts?........
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#2
lossforgain

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I have my doubts, even though I am not qualified to have any.


THIS should be the motto of many of us here on DFO, myself included at times! :notworthy:

Having said that, as interesting as this is, it's still bolted to the shell.
Your thoughts?........


I am reserving judgment until I can hear a kit equipped with them. Yamaha does it rather wellwith the YESS mount which is still bolted to the shell, so I think there is a good chance that these work as advertised.

#3
mlayton

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i hope the mounts are affordable so that some of us can try them for a retrofit...

mike

#4
K.O.

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Yamaha does it rather wellwith the YESS mount which is still bolted to the shell, so I think there is a good chance that these work as advertised.


As I recall the Yamaha YESS system is supposed to be bolted to the shell at a nodal point where it supposedly won't make any difference in the tone (no vibration right there). I'm not that up on this stuff but I also recall somebody (N & C I think) doing their lugs this way with a single mounting at a node*.

The Ludwig would mount wherever the lugs were intended to go which probably isn't a nodal point except perhaps by coincidence.

I'm not sure any of this matters or is all just advertising blather anyway. I do like the concept of the new Ludwig mount and can think of a lot of practical uses for it...including mounting drums.

*a: a point, line, or surface of a vibrating body or system that is free or relatively free from vibratory motion

b: a point at which a wave has an amplitude of zero


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#5
JBernie

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I'm with you, Mike. If it's less than $50 I'm willing to give it a try. Anything more than that, I'll keep my Gauger RIMS.
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#6
ARGuy

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I gave this topic a lot of thought on the way to and from my gig tonight.
I think it's great that Ludwig came up with a product that is (as far as I know) the first of its kind, and seems to be one of the hot topics at NAMM. The idea of the sliding track to allow different hole spacing is great, and should help their sales to non-Ludwig owners. I'd be interested in trying a couple out myself - they could be pretty handy. But, they're not what I consider to be "isolation mounts" because there are 2 bolts that penetrate the shell and are attached directly to the shell on the inside. They're really not much different from Yamaha's YESS mounts, which aren't isolation mounts in my book (and notice that YESS stands for "Yamaha Enhanced Sustain System - no mention of isolation in the product name). I know, there's no legal definition for, or standards that have to be met, before something can be called an isolation mount. Like K.O. said, it's just advertising blather.
Speaking of advertising blather, "The Proof Is In The Tone" graphic attempts to prove that their Atlas mount does a better job of isolating the drum than traditional isolation mounts do. Because there aren't any kind of scales along either the horizontal or vertical, all it shows is that the sound lasts longer with their Atlas mount than it does with their Vibraband. The Vibraband is just a copy of the original RIMS mount that was modified to be cheaper to produce - take a flat piece of steel, bend it 90 degrees, form it into a semicircle, cut a few holes for the (recycled rubber) grommets, slap a standard side plate on it and you have something that resembles an isolation mount! They probably work fine on some drums, but they're not in the same category as the real RIMS mounts because whoever came up with the Vibraband design cared more about how cheaply and easily they could be produced than how well they worked.
Still, I'm definitely interested in hearing a drum mounted on one of these in person, with my own ears. I'm sure it works to some degree, just like the YESS mount, but then again I've heard choked YESS mounted drums.
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#7
LUDSK

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Full disclosure here. . . I invented/designed the ATLAS mount. I wanted to take a minute to explain the theory behind it, because it requires you to rethink what isolation/suspension is, and how it works.
A Vibraband, and many other isolation mounts rest the drum on several rubber points. While this effectively ISOLATES the drum, it also DAMPENS the drum. The weight of the drum is resting on multiple points on materials designed to dampen vibration. You can see this on the sustain plot: The oscillation on the Vibraband sustain plot (bottom) is where the drum is literally bouncing against those rubber bumpers.

Attached File  Atlas Mount Comparison- Vibraband bottom, Atlas top.jpg   194.15KB   52 downloads

The ATLAS mount takes a different approach: Let the drum resonate as a single unit, seperated from dampening components. The isolation & Suspension take place off to the side of the drum. The vibration of the drum has more leverage over the dampening when it is off to the side, reducing the dampening effect compared to the drum resting directly on it. This is why the ATLAS Mounted Sustain plot (TOP) is smoother, and resonates longer.
No trickery on this chart, same scale, same results on prototypes and final production models. The difference is small, but consistent and noticable

As for the effect of mounting to the shell . . . Some of the most resonant, great sounding drums I have personally heard, were on vintage drums. The brackets were mounted to the shell, but the mouting was connected with thinner, more flexible mounts than we typically see today, that had a lot of "Spring" in them. As mounts became more heavy duty, shell mounting became a problem. The ATLAS Mount puts the "Spring" back in the mount, without giving up the robust durability and flexibility of the modern mounting systems.

Initially, I was trying to design a system that was sonically equivalent to the Vibraband, but with huge versatility (and I hate changing heads and tuning drums with mounting systems that go around tension rods). When we started testing the mount, we saw the potential for sound improvment, and tweaked the design until that became a reality. I have been playing on these in various prototype stages for over a year, and have been extremely pleased. I hope you all are too when you get to try them out.

Sorry for being long winded, I am fairly passionate about the subject! I will try to keep up with this thread and answer any questions you might have.

Thanks for reading!

-Josh Allen, Design Engineer, Ludwig Drums
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#8
W&A Player

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"HUGE NOTICABLE difference in sound between one of those and a drum mounted on a mount that bolted right to the shell".

There is also a HUGE NOTICEABLE difference in taste between chocolate ice cream and corn on the cob. Both are delicious but different. Is one better than the other?

Edited by W&A Player, 27 January 2013 - 07:25 AM.

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#9
Luddite

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Full disclosure here. . . I invented/designed the ATLAS mount. I wanted to take a minute to explain the theory behind it, because it requires you to rethink what isolation/suspension is, and how it works.
A Vibraband, and many other isolation mounts rest the drum on several rubber points. While this effectively ISOLATES the drum, it also DAMPENS the drum. The weight of the drum is resting on multiple points on materials designed to dampen vibration. You can see this on the sustain plot: The oscillation on the Vibraband sustain plot (bottom) is where the drum is literally bouncing against those rubber bumpers.

Attached File  Atlas Mount Comparison- Vibraband bottom, Atlas top.jpg   194.15KB   52 downloads

The ATLAS mount takes a different approach: Let the drum resonate as a single unit, seperated from dampening components. The isolation & Suspension take place off to the side of the drum. The vibration of the drum has more leverage over the dampening when it is off to the side, reducing the dampening effect compared to the drum resting directly on it. This is why the ATLAS Mounted Sustain plot (TOP) is smoother, and resonates longer.
No trickery on this chart, same scale, same results on prototypes and final production models. The difference is small, but consistent and noticable

As for the effect of mounting to the shell . . . Some of the most resonant, great sounding drums I have personally heard, were on vintage drums. The brackets were mounted to the shell, but the mouting was connected with thinner, more flexible mounts than we typically see today, that had a lot of "Spring" in them. As mounts became more heavy duty, shell mounting became a problem. The ATLAS Mount puts the "Spring" back in the mount, without giving up the robust durability and flexibility of the modern mounting systems.

Initially, I was trying to design a system that was sonically equivalent to the Vibraband, but with huge versatility (and I hate changing heads and tuning drums with mounting systems that go around tension rods). When we started testing the mount, we saw the potential for sound improvment, and tweaked the design until that became a reality. I have been playing on these in various prototype stages for over a year, and have been extremely pleased. I hope you all are too when you get to try them out.

Sorry for being long winded, I am fairly passionate about the subject! I will try to keep up with this thread and answer any questions you might have.

Thanks for reading!

-Josh Allen, Design Engineer, Ludwig Drums

Thanks for sharing that, and a belated welcome to the forum. It looks like an interesting and viable approach. As a long time Ludwig owner and fan, it's nice to see the innovation flowing out of Ludwig these days.

Edited by Luddite, 27 January 2013 - 07:43 AM.

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#10
W&A Player

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LUDSK makes some very interesting points.He designed a new type of tom mount thst pays homage to the old tried and true shell mounts of the past. This new Atlas mount interests me very much because:

1. I have great affinity for shell mounted tom hardware. My favorites are Swivomatic, Set-O-Matic, and rail consolettes in no particular order.

2. I have never warmed up to "isolation" tom mounts that cover up much of a drum shell.

3. I don't like toms that "ring forever". I prefer a modicum of dampening.

Please pardon my frequent use of the word "I" in this post. But, how else can one express one's personal opinions?

Edited by W&A Player, 27 January 2013 - 10:02 AM.

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#11
RyanR

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LUDSK makes some very interesting points.He designed a new type of tom mount thst pays homage to the old tried and true shell mounts of the past. This new Atlas mount inserests me very much because:

1. I have great affinity for shell mounted tom hardware. My favorites are Swivomatic, Set-O-Matic, and rail consolettes in no particular order.

2. I have never warmed up to "isolation" tom mounts that cover up much of a drum shell.

3. I don't like toms that "ring forever". I prefer a modicum of dampening.

Please pardon my frequent use of the word "I" in this post. But, how else can one express one's personal opinions?



"I" gotta agree. :occasion5:

Too much ring/sustain doesn't help... especially on floors. Just adds mud to the mix.

Shell mounted stuff shows off the drums finish soooo much better... and tends to be as functional/practical as anything else.

I'm really interested in these new mounts. Curious to see if they fit in cases OK. :rolleyes:

-Ryan
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#12
LimaPop

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I can't wait to try them, I hope they are available as a part so they can be installed on non Ludwig drums. I always felt Yammys nodal point marketing was bunk. Why is this magic nodal point always located 2" from the upper edge... On every drum size!!!! Seems the nodal points would be located in some fractional increment of drum length and diameter..
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#13
JBernie

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I'm with you and many others, W&A, regarding having never warmed up to RIMS. I hate the way they look and take away from look of a beautiful drum.

However, after trying my very first RIMS about 12 years ago on a Ludwig 70's 3ply tom, I couldn't believe my ears! I hated the look and every time I added a vintage 3ply Ludwig to my basement I would try mounting both ways. 100% of the time the drum sounded choked compared to RIMS. So I've warmed up to them in a big way, sonically. Visually..... Hell no!

Because my #1 main, go to kit is a newer Classic Maple without any mount bolted to the shell and I am NOT about to drill holes in her, I have to go with RIMS. I can't play with my tom on a snare stand because it puts it too far left for me, so RIMS is my only option. For what it's worth...... The Ludwig Vibraband in now in the local landfill! What a piece of crap compared to the Gauger!! Just saying.

Now, if your tastes are for a drum with less sustain, I can see where one wouldn't share my opinion and are more satisfied with a shell mounted mount. And that's totally cool.
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#14
JBernie

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By the way, Ludsk..... Thanks for participating in this discussion.

I want some more input, if you don't mind........ I understand how it's engineered to isolate the mount from the shell. But I still don't understand how the stress/flex on the shell is eliminated. To me, that seems to be the number one problem for a mount to choke a drum.
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#15
RyanR

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The Ludwig Vibraband in now in the local landfill! What a piece of crap compared to the Gauger!! Just saying.



Dunno. Only experience with one Vibraband so far. Brand new one last January, put on a '69 9x13 that I didn't want to drill. The version with the Keystone bracket is smaller and less obtrusive than that with the classic bracket. Works nice.

FWIW, lots of folks buying "Vibrabands" are likely getting the Accent/Element grade stuff. That's junk.

No doubt that the Gauger stuff is nicer, though.

-Ryan
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#16
Brian Frank

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I like the new system. For my rims have a ton of bounce and never set right for me.

One thing that always made me laugh, was selling people kits with rims as their selling point, and then they aske if we stocked the remo muffling o's. hilarious
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#17
yetanotherdrummer

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I have the Ludwig version of the RIMS mount on my ClubDate set, not a big fan.

On my Classic Maple set, I just drilled the shell and attached the mount directly to it. It actually has a better tone then it did when I had it in a snare stand.

Attached File  102_3236.jpg   805.31KB   21 downloads

Attached File  102_3233.jpg   780.02KB   43 downloads
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#18
thin shell

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Full disclosure here. . . I invented/designed the ATLAS mount. I wanted to take a minute to explain the theory behind it, because it requires you to rethink what isolation/suspension is, and how it works.
A Vibraband, and many other isolation mounts rest the drum on several rubber points. While this effectively ISOLATES the drum, it also DAMPENS the drum. The weight of the drum is resting on multiple points on materials designed to dampen vibration. You can see this on the sustain plot: The oscillation on the Vibraband sustain plot (bottom) is where the drum is literally bouncing against those rubber bumpers.

Attached File  Atlas Mount Comparison- Vibraband bottom, Atlas top.jpg   194.15KB   52 downloads

The ATLAS mount takes a different approach: Let the drum resonate as a single unit, seperated from dampening components. The isolation & Suspension take place off to the side of the drum. The vibration of the drum has more leverage over the dampening when it is off to the side, reducing the dampening effect compared to the drum resting directly on it. This is why the ATLAS Mounted Sustain plot (TOP) is smoother, and resonates longer.
No trickery on this chart, same scale, same results on prototypes and final production models. The difference is small, but consistent and noticable

As for the effect of mounting to the shell . . . Some of the most resonant, great sounding drums I have personally heard, were on vintage drums. The brackets were mounted to the shell, but the mouting was connected with thinner, more flexible mounts than we typically see today, that had a lot of "Spring" in them. As mounts became more heavy duty, shell mounting became a problem. The ATLAS Mount puts the "Spring" back in the mount, without giving up the robust durability and flexibility of the modern mounting systems.

Initially, I was trying to design a system that was sonically equivalent to the Vibraband, but with huge versatility (and I hate changing heads and tuning drums with mounting systems that go around tension rods). When we started testing the mount, we saw the potential for sound improvment, and tweaked the design until that became a reality. I have been playing on these in various prototype stages for over a year, and have been extremely pleased. I hope you all are too when you get to try them out.

Sorry for being long winded, I am fairly passionate about the subject! I will try to keep up with this thread and answer any questions you might have.

Thanks for reading!

-Josh Allen, Design Engineer, Ludwig Drums


Josh, thanks for posting that. This is what I have said several times in the past:

I really don't agree. Older vintage drums had lightweight, rather flimsy mounting hardware that had a lot of give to it so most of them sound good without rims mounts. Once you get into the ultra heavy duty mounts introduced in the 70's is a definite effect on the sound of the drums. This is not the first discussion of how drums in that time period stared sounding "bad". This observation started decades ago.



The biggest part of the problem with memoriloc and other large tube tom holders is the rigidity of the mount. If you were to hit a 13" tom mounted with a swivomatic mount, you will notice that the drum moves around a lot. This lets the drum resonate pretty well. It would still resonate more with a rims type of mount but most people agree that swivomatic era drums sound great. Now hit that same 13" mounted with memoriloc or Pearl type mounts. The drum won't move hardly at all. This is what chokes the heck out of it. When you raise or lower the drum you are changing the rigidity of the mount which will alter how much the drum is choked.


I'm glad to see that someone gets it. Personally I am glad it is Ludwig but that is just my brand preference. Everyone else keeps going bigger and more rigid. DW is up to 1/2" on their L rods and I bet 9/16" is on the drawing board.

Keep up the innovative thinking and bore us with enough detail as you like. A lot of us are just as interested in the details as in drums.
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#19
samsdrum

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I'm with you and many others, W&A, regarding having never warmed up to RIMS. I hate the way they look and take away from look of a beautiful drum.

However, after trying my very first RIMS about 12 years ago on a Ludwig 70's 3ply tom, I couldn't believe my ears! I hated the look and every time I added a vintage 3ply Ludwig to my basement I would try mounting both ways. 100% of the time the drum sounded choked compared to RIMS. So I've warmed up to them in a big way, sonically. Visually..... Hell no!

Because my #1 main, go to kit is a newer Classic Maple without any mount bolted to the shell and I am NOT about to drill holes in her, I have to go with RIMS. I can't play with my tom on a snare stand because it puts it too far left for me, so RIMS is my only option. For what it's worth...... The Ludwig Vibraband in now in the local landfill! What a piece of crap compared to the Gauger!! Just saying.

Now, if your tastes are for a drum with less sustain, I can see where one wouldn't share my opinion and are more satisfied with a shell mounted mount. And that's totally cool.

I am 100% with you on this. That is why I use a snare stand as opposed to the rail mount on my vintage Luddy kit. The 13" tom has serious resonance issues when I put it on the rail with the tom mount directly on the shell. I prefer the old rail consolette look and mounting, smaller footprint, etc. That was how drums were all mounted when I started playing. :) But I prefer sustain/resonance for as long as possible so I use the other methods for my toms. Maybe it is a curse of the thinner shell? Maybe 6 or 7 ply maple isn't as affected, I can't say. I just know how MY drums sound best.
I really am more interested in using this mount to mount a ride off of the bass drum without the need to drill for a mount. THAT is what I think is so cool about this product.
Ludwig on top again!!!
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#20
LUDSK

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Thanks all for your input!

J Bernie- In my opinion, the "stress on the shell" thing is not really the big thing that people make it out to be. A drum shell is under a lot of stresses to begin with. Each lug is applying stress to the shell, as is the head. The complete drum "unit" is tensioned, and resonates together. The more important piece is to allow this "drum unit" to resonate independent of restriction.

Since the connection to the mounting point is flexible on the ATLAS mount, it allows this independence. It also does drastically reduce the dynamic stress on the shell compared to a typical direct mount- the drum mounted portion floats with the drum, reducing the stresses generated during a drum strike compared to a rigid mount.


And regarding availability- they are available now on Keystone, Classic Maple and Legacy, and will be available as a separate accessory in a few months, along with a host of compatible accessories.

-Josh
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