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Anybody ever see a 19-22 first stamp Zildjian?

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#1
madchops82

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I have just about all the smaller sizes.  Wondering if anybody has seen a larger first stamp.  They've got mojo.  


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#2
MLayton

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we've got a forum member that has an 18,thats still very uncommon. would be great to know what all else is out there..

 

mike


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#3
madchops82

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we've got a forum member that has an 18,thats still very uncommon. would be great to know what all else is out there..

 

mike

 

 

I've got one coming in the mail.  Can't wait to get it.  


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#4
Sonorholic

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I would think it's pretty rare as I've heard the story that when Krupa first wanted a 16" cymbal, it was really hard for them to make one that BIG!!

 

I don't know the stamp history though so maybe they didn't change it, until some of the larger sizes were common.


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#5
mlvbs

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Nice! Keep us posted as I love these early, larger Zildjians. They're incredible, and have a sound all their own.

 

There's two pretty different stamps that get lumped under "First Stamp" - the true "first" stamp is from the '30s, and those are typically pretty small cymbals.

 

The larger cymbals are almost always the 1940s stamp, which I consider to be the "Second Stamp" or "Pre-Trans Stamp" (still very rare and very cool). Your 18" will probably be a Second Stamp. The largest First Stamp I've seen was a 16", and the largest Second Stamp I've seen was 20.75". VERY rare to see them in the 20" range. We know from photos that very large cymbals were made during both the First and Second stamp eras, but they haven't shown themselves on the internet yet.

 

This is a true First Stamp, from the '30s. Note the second "i" in Zildjian goes all the way up.

 

14firststamp1_print.jpg

 

And here's what I consider to be the "Second Stamp". The second "i" in Zildjian is short. The main difference I look for is the little diamond shape in the Arabic script...the lines that form it are much thinner in the Second Stamp.

 

18firststamp_print.jpg

 

I've been on a crusade to get people to tell these two very different stamps apart, so please forgive my lecturing! The Rob Scott timeline is mostly right with the old K stuff, but the First Stamp info is all wrong.

 

-Bill


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#6
madchops82

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Nice! Keep us posted as I love these early, larger Zildjians. They're incredible, and have a sound all their own.

 

There's two pretty different stamps that get lumped under "First Stamp" - the true "first" stamp is from the '30s, and those are typically pretty small cymbals.

 

The larger cymbals are almost always the 1940s stamp, which I consider to be the "Second Stamp" or "Pre-Trans Stamp" (still very rare and very cool). Your 18" will probably be a Second Stamp. The largest First Stamp I've seen was a 16", and the largest Second Stamp I've seen was 20.75". VERY rare to see them in the 20" range. We know from photos that very large cymbals were made during both the First and Second stamp eras, but they haven't shown themselves on the internet yet.

 

This is a true First Stamp, from the '30s. Note the second "i" in Zildjian goes all the way up.

 

14firststamp1_print.jpg

 

And here's what I consider to be the "Second Stamp". The second "i" in Zildjian is short. The main difference I look for is the little diamond shape in the Arabic script...the lines that form it are much thinner in the Second Stamp.

 

18firststamp_print.jpg

 

I've been on a crusade to get people to tell these two very different stamps apart, so please forgive my lecturing! The Rob Scott timeline is mostly right with the old K stuff, but the First Stamp info is all wrong.

 

-Bill

 

 

What ever happened to the 20.75 second stamp?  That sounds very interesting.  Do you have a sound/video file?  I've always loved those old pies.  They really embody an era and have an amazing purity of tone.  Thanks for the education and I wish I would've bought the 18 first stamp you had about a month ago.  This one has a nice keyhole, but it'll do...and obviously, they don't pop up much at all.  


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#7
MLayton

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bill m-

 

how do you classify the "first stamp" that has the made in the usa way down lower than the rest of the stamp. ive got one of these and just curious.

 

imke


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#8
mlvbs

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bill m-

 

how do you classify the "first stamp" that has the made in the usa way down lower than the rest of the stamp. ive got one of these and just curious.

 

imke

Mike, do you have a pic of that one? The early stamps used more than one die, so there's a lot of variation in spacing. You also see a lot of double stamps and faint "ghost" stamps alongside the main one.


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#9
mlvbs

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What ever happened to the 20.75 second stamp?  That sounds very interesting.  Do you have a sound/video file?  I've always loved those old pies.  They really embody an era and have an amazing purity of tone.  Thanks for the education and I wish I would've bought the 18 first stamp you had about a month ago.  This one has a nice keyhole, but it'll do...and obviously, they don't pop up much at all.  

That one was at the old cymbalholic gallery, which was removed a few years ago. I wish I'd copied the photo and soundfile...one of the most amazing recordings of a cymbal I've ever heard.


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#10
MLayton

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don't have mine handy but will take one. it is like this though....

 

mike

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#11
APelletier

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The largest I could find on  the Bay is 16" and like what was said, the "I" is short. There are differences in the "J" as well, no?

 

http://www.ebay.com/...=item35ca1bfab7


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#12
mlvbs

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don't have mine handy but will take one. it is like this though....

 

mike

Mike, I'd say with the really thick "diamond" and tall "i", that's a true First Stamp.


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#13
mlvbs

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The largest I could find on  the Bay is 16" and like what was said, the "I" is short. There are differences in the "J" as well, no?

 

http://www.ebay.com/...=item35ca1bfab7

Nice find - that's a classic '40s Second Stamp. Yes, the "J" is definitely different - the bottom section of the J is much wider in the Second Stamp.

 

Also, as with all of the A Zildjian stamps, both the First and Second Stamps have minor variations.


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#14
APelletier

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Here's one with the short "I", but the diamond shaped arabic letter looks heavier...

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#15
mlvbs

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Here's one with the short "I", but the diamond shaped arabic letter looks heavier...

That's a nice variation of the Second Stamp.

 

Here's a little comparison of the the "diamond" difference. There are variations, but in general the inside of the diamond of the First Stamp isn't much more than a dot.

 

first_vs_second.jpg


Edited by mlvbs, 30 July 2013 - 10:11 PM.

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#16
MLayton

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don't have mine handy but will take one. it is like this though....

 

mike

Mike, I'd say with the really thick "diamond" and tall "i", that's a true First Stamp.

thany you sir...while that pic is not mine, that's what my stamp looks like. mine is an 11" at 320 grams. signature under the bell. sounds so good, I retired it.....which I have mixed emotions about. ive got a light touch. but do not want to take a chance on cracking that one.

 

mike


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#17
APelletier

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Mlvbs, I don't know if you saw the thread I started but last Saturday I bought a 10" splash at a pawn shop for 5 bucks... 220 grams and is in great shape, no bent edges like the ones I've been seeing sold on Ebay for $100+! The find piqued my interest in these early American cymbals and I've been learning more about them. Thanks for your input. 

 

Sorry for the highjack Mike and Madchops. Be sure to post pics of that 18", Madchops. that'll be something to see! Mike, I'm not sure about playing mine either. When I bought it Saturday I was demonstrating (with my finger and choking it off) how they used these small cymbals in songs like the "Charleston", and she immediately knew what I was talking about!

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Edited by APelletier, 30 July 2013 - 10:49 PM.

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#18
mlvbs

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thany you sir...while that pic is not mine, that's what my stamp looks like. mine is an 11" at 320 grams. signature under the bell. sounds so good, I retired it.....which I have mixed emotions about. ive got a light touch. but do not want to take a chance on cracking that one.


Mike, I'd say with the really thick "diamond" and tall "i", that's a true First Stamp.

 

mike

Nice, Mike! Those early one with the signature are too cool. I don't blame you at all for retiring it...they're not making any more of them any time soon!

 

Mlvbs, I don't know if you saw the thread I started but last Saturday I bought a 10" splash at a pawn shop for 5 bucks... 220 grams and is in great shape, no bent edges like the ones I've been seeing sold on Ebay for $100+! The find piqued my interest in these early American cymbals and I've been learning more about them. Thanks for your input. 

 

Sorry for the highjack Mike and Madchops. Be sure to post pics of that 18", Madchops. that'll be something to see! Mike, I'm not sure about playing mine either. When I bought it Saturday I was demonstrating (with my finger and choking it off) how they used these small cymbals in songs like the "Charleston", and she immediately knew what I was talking about!

Just checked out your thread - excellent score! And beautiful First Stamp! You also took some great shots of the stamp. That's not easy!

 

-Bill


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#19
MLayton

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andy

 

they sure are cool and sound great though. you did great on yours! I picked mine up on ebay 12 years. it was the days of bad pics,no sound files and no idea on weights! I had been wanting a small vintage splash in the worst way. kept buying them off of ebay and everything was too heavy. like bottom hi hat thick heavy. then I got my first stamp and a k Constantinople both for around 75 I think. when I first hit the first stamp, it was like ahhhhhh.!!!

 

the only thing I have close to it in sound or quality is 12" early v.j. lapage at 280 grams. one finger tap of it and its like.....what???!!/??

 

mike


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#20
MLayton

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here we go..this one is mine. even though its a small cymbal, look at that undersize pic. its a trans stamp on steroids before trans stamps were made. lovely,lovely cymbals..

 

mike

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