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Independent Cymbalsmith Poll

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Poll: Independent Cymbalsmith Poll

Who is your favorite independent cymbalsmith?

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#41
bizrad523

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Thank you Clowdog!

 

Dboomer.... this guy shows up and says:

These people listed above are only good at taking photos with hammer in their hand, which makes me laugh all the time  :)

You're treating this like an opinion, but how is that not an insult? If any of the cymbalsmiths mentioned were here reading this forum (and some are indeed members), it would be a direct insult. Yet, if I or anyone else call him a "troll" that's definitely worse? Why can't that just be my "opinion," too? Many of us have been members here for years, and some of us actually know these cymbalsmiths personally, so those comments cut deep. He showed up casting stones. And he continues....

 

You do nothing but always typing here ?  :) 

 

Believe me I dont know you in person but i would not want too  :)

 

 

Zenstat is an institution here and has been a wealth of cymbal knowledge.  Many others have contributed with honest discussion for years. 

 

Dboomer, this is the kind of mudslinging you wish to defend? ......  this is definitely not the hill i'd die on. 


Edited by bizrad523, 19 March 2017 - 11:19 AM.

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#42
bongomania

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A raw forged disc of bronze, with no hammering, lathing, or other work, is it a cymbal?
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#43
mbettis

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At first, I felt insulted, and my feelings were hurt.

 

But, then I was told that I was the best of a bad lot.

 

....and, I guess I'm okay with that.

 

The best of a bad lot,

Bettis

 

P.S.  I wish that I actually were the best of that bad lot.  ...still working on it!


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#44
sonusseeker

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 I've also never had an issue with any Bettis cymbals I've owned or played with being noticeably heavier on one side like several Istanbul and Bosphorus I've run across.

 

...would you know why this happens?...i also had a bos 20th anniversary that sat on the stand at a permanent angle owing to a weight difference on one side...


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#45
James Walker

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The best of a bad lot,

Bettis

 

 

I sense an advertising campaign. ;)


Edited by James Walker, 19 March 2017 - 02:52 PM.

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#46
dboomer

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Thank you Clowdog!
 
Dboomer.... this guy shows up and says:

These people listed above are only good at taking photos with hammer in their hand, which makes me laugh all the time  :)

You're treating this like an opinion, but how is that not an insult?
 
Dboomer, this is the kind of mudslinging you wish to defend? ....

Well first I have to think you need to allow a little slack as English is clearly not his first language. So a little reading between the lines I think is appropriate. Second, I'm not defending him. But his opinion is not without some logic (which you can agree with or not). There are any number of posts that consider one not a drum builder unless the form the shells. It's really a similar argument.

In any event, please state your opposition all you want. That's how this is suppose to work. The thread is asking for opinions, not facts. So opinions are really just that, neither right or wrong by definition. (Not looking for a grammatical fight here guys)

Frankly I read lots of dumb-ass opinions on this site. Simple. I either state my opinion or move on. No problem. Now if someone is stating their opinion as "fact" then I don't mind calling on them to back it. But there's still no reason to resort to insults. We're better than that. And if someone is being a total jerk, it's pretty obvious to everyone else without anyone pointing out that fact.

Really, doesn't anyone see the benefits of being civil? Really?
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#47
PressRoll

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This is just getting silly now.
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#48
bizrad523

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Well first I have to think you need to allow a little slack as English is clearly not his first language. So a little reading between the lines I think is appropriate.

I can understand him perfectly, I think you can, too.

But his opinion is not without some logic (which you can agree with or not).

Yes, but theres a difference between a logical opinion "I dont think these guys are cymbalsmiths, and heres why" versus flaming, "they're only good at taking photos with hammer in their hand, which makes me laugh,"

 

Honestly, "trolling" is actually a tame way to describe it. That's rude.

 

Really, doesn't anyone see the benefits of being civil? Really?

I genuinely think we're after the same thing. I just don't like rude things said about our cymbalsmith/DFO brethren.

 

 

Now to the substance of our disagreement with Drumattist, he mentioned the "secret formula," the turkish foundries employ... is he referring to the mix of alloys or some other proprietary method? Because so far as I'm aware the mix of alloys is actually nothing special (maybe a trace element here or there) across different cymbal manufacturers, but basically the 80/20 bell bronze mix.(see attached) I think Zenstat can weigh in here on this point?

 

Or is there something different about their method of hammering and lathing that's superior to Spizz, Bettis, Skiba, etc...? What is that, exactly?

Attached Files


Edited by bizrad523, 19 March 2017 - 08:43 PM.

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#49
JDA

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It's always cymbalsmith. How about CymbalJones?

 

Think that's agreeable

 

and..

https://simple.wikip...ith_(metalwork)

"The word smith means "to hit" or "to strike" ,  drumsmiths.  


Edited by JDA, 19 March 2017 - 09:38 PM.

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#50
dboomer

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This is just getting silly now.


My point exactly. Thank you for agreeing with me.
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#51
Drummatist

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Well first I have to think you need to allow a little slack as English is clearly not his first language. So a little reading between the lines I think is appropriate.

I can understand him perfectly, I think you can, too.

But his opinion is not without some logic (which you can agree with or not).

Yes, but theres a difference between a logical opinion "I dont think these guys are cymbalsmiths, and heres why" versus flaming, "they're only good at taking photos with hammer in their hand, which makes me laugh,"

Honestly, "trolling" is actually a tame way to describe it. That's rude.

Really, doesn't anyone see the benefits of being civil? Really?

I genuinely think we're after the same thing. I just don't like rude things said about our cymbalsmith/DFO brethren.


Now to the substance of our disagreement with Drumattist, he mentioned the "secret formula," the turkish foundries employ... is he referring to the mix of alloys or some other proprietary method? Because so far as I'm aware the mix of alloys is actually nothing special (maybe a trace element here or there) across different cymbal manufacturers, but basically the 80/20 bell bronze mix.(see attached) I think Zenstat can weigh in here on this point?

Or is there something different about their method of hammering and lathing that's superior to Spizz, Bettis, Skiba, etc...? What is that, exactly?

Yes, this is my point. Do you really think that it is as easy to understand the mix and the secret as reading some datas on an analysis paper? If so, please write a letter to Zildjian to have their old K cymbals analysed and by this way they can produce the same ones that were produced in Istanbul years ago. This was what I meant by "most of you know nothing but only interpreting by focusing on the videos and informations which were given by companies" if you can answer this question in an acceptable way, i will leave here.

Let's come the mix being nothing special anymore 80% copper and 20% tin. You are wrong again. Tin is actually more than 20% because when it first embraces copper in the pot, a fume occurs and combustion takes out an important part of tin. This means that tin should be added more than it is thought in order to find the equivalance which refers to combustion reasoning dissapearance.

Anyway; i can give you many examples about this but i suggest you send a letter to Zildjian to have analysed their old K's, they most probably forgot about it. By this way; we will be able to have the same cymbals just like old ones.

As independent from this particular article by addressing no one; my opinion is still the same; in order to call anyone as a cymbalsmith, that particular person must have the knowledge of every single step in cymbal making. Otherwise, they might have the chance to be called as hammeringsmith / hammerer or lathingsmith/latherer.

If he can both hammer and lathe - has the knowledge of casting, too - yes he is a cymbalsmith now.
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#52
bizrad523

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Do you really think that it is as easy to understand the mix and the secret as reading some datas on an analysis paper?

Yes. Wait, are you implying that it isn't?... that theres some magic involved, or a secret element that doesn't show up when subject to scientific analysis? I'm not sure I follow.

If so, please write a letter to Zildjian to have their old K cymbals analysed and by this way they can produce the same ones that were produced in Istanbul years ago. 

It's already been done by enterprising independent hobbyists (perhaps some reading this very thread) The results show that, even with cymbals of the same manufacture, there is some variation of the percentage of tin in the mix, and the other trace metals as well, this is largely due to massive variables in the casting process of the turkish tradition. It is, of course a rough process that has gotten more consistent as the casting technologies have improved (see Sabian)

 

So again, this notion that there is a "old secret tradition" where there are "secret elements" and things are cast to very specific tolerances to produce a specific result - today it's just marketing buzzwords. We just have the science available today to dispel old myths.

Let's come the mix being nothing special anymore 80% copper and 20% tin. You are wrong again.

I wasn't speaking in absolutes, my friend.  I said "basically 80/20" not "exactly 80/20" .... again, it varies surprisingly cymbal to cymbal.

in order to call anyone as a cymbalsmith, that particular person must have the knowledge of every single step in cymbal making. 

If he can both hammer and lathe - has the knowledge of casting, too - yes he is a cymbalsmith now.

Okay, lets drill down on this point. Simply "knowledge" of this process is enough? So they don't necessiraily have to partake? How MUCH knowledge of this process is enough? Understanding the basics in a clinical sense, or first-hand working knowledge? 


Edited by bizrad523, 20 March 2017 - 01:16 AM.

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#53
MLayton

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Drummatist- are you a Turkish cymbalsmith by any chance?



#54
mbettis

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Foundries are cool, but I find their interiors to be a little less than artistically inspiring.

 

Just posted this pic of yesterday's hammering location to social media.   :icon_smile:

 

Smokey_Boulder_02.jpg

 

heheheh...

Matt


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#55
clowndog

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Matt, that is a great photo of you with a hammer in your hand!
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#56
bizrad523

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Matt, that is a great photo of you with a hammer in your hand!

 

which makes me laugh all the time  :)


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#57
JDA

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Yes i believe that paiste and meinl have no cymbal smiths but good, clever machines. 100 exactly the same cymbals with one button.


Dont forget; cymbal is a sounding insturment and lathing is related to its shape. The vital point is the alloy itself and hammering comes just after the alloy.

Once more; I dont think Meinl, Zildjian, Paiste have any cymbalsmiths but good, expensive machines which can produce 100 exacty the same cymbals with one button just like iphones or Lg televisions are produced.

Meinl's best series is Byzance which comes from Turkey, by real smiths :) Does it make sense to you?

  Drummatist- Maybe you can explain something to me.

 

From the time the K Zildjian closure-  in around 1978- closed down in Turkey - until now - there have been many some successful some small some larger-  Turkish cymbal makers/ cymbal smiths/ etc/ Made in Turkey-cymbals

 

my Question- after 30 plus years - How is it - supposedly-all things being equal- How do you explain-  the- original K Zildjian made in Istanbul- still commanding- double triple quadruple- the price of a

 

brand new Turkish cymbal?

 

Thanks for your reply


Edited by JDA, 21 March 2017 - 02:54 PM.

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#58
bizrad523

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