16in Ride Cymbals?

[Franklin Nigel Stein]

Back in the "Olden Days" when drummers and cymbal makers were trying to figure out exactly what a ride was or should be, a lot of players used smaller cymbals to fill that need than we typically do now.

I'm wondering if there are any users (regular or otherwise) of odd size rides? These two videos (badly shot and poorly drummed in a hurry during set up) are of a c.1950 Trans Stamp Zildjian 16in 1525g that I'm sure was intended as a ride cymbal. They would have basically been sold to fill the need of cafe playing jazz trios.

What do ya think? Do we need something like this these days? Anybody out there use these little monsters?

 

[little rock]

I was talking to a member here today about a 16" Sabian HH Manhattan Bridge Ride that I have that is a crash ride that does both quite well.

 

[toddbishop]

I had a 16" A. Zildjian Medium Ride for awhile-- it was really interesting, handled just like a 20. Probably sounded totally normal live or miked up. Would be good if you're in a group that plays a lot of Bossa Novas. Or good for rehearsals. You could really cut down on your travel footprint if somebody made a 16" cymbal bag. Just carry 16" ride, 15" crash, 13" hihats.

 

[Franklin Nigel Stein]

I had a 16" A. Zildjian Medium Ride for awhile-- it was really interesting, handled just like a 20. Probably sounded totally normal live or miked up. Would be good if you're in a group that plays a lot of Bossa Novas. Or good for rehearsals. You could really cut down on your travel footprint if somebody made a 16" cymbal bag. Just carry 16" ride, 15" crash, 13" hihats.

That's kind of the basis of my curiosity. I have 18 and 20 inch bags and have seen a 16 (I thought about it). I keep a set of cymbals stashed away where I play for when I'm feeling super lazy but even when I'm not, I hate lugging around heavy cymbals. I'm currently using an 18 that weighs in at about 1665 grams and it does about everything I need.

The idea of a 16 intrigues me though this one is already boxed up and ready to head to a friends place (he's sending me an 18in crash in trade). My guess would be that he's planning on drilling this one out as a sizzle given that it's not hugely valuable.

I've even got a 1930s 15in A Zildjian that I'm pretty sure would make a great ride so. . .

 

[toddbishop]

I had a 17" 602 medium ride also. The Zildjian was better-- the size just seemed a bridge too far, just for the look of it. But it was fully functional, and an interesting direction for tightening up sound, and handling situations with problem dynamics. T. Bruce Wittet, talking about his 17" Zil med/hvy, or 15" Sabian sound control crash, said that for recording, the mic can't tell a little cymbal from a big one-- I never tested that to that extreme.

 

[Tama CW]

Over about 1300-1325 gm I lose interest in a 16" ride. 1225-1275 gm handles it pretty well. Too "tingy" for my tastes when they are much heavier.

Recently ran across an earlier 16" ink stamped as "THIN RIDE"........I think it was a 50's or maybe 60's......possibly a trans stamp. Was sort of surprised to see that double inking.

 

[Franklin Nigel Stein]

Over about 1300-1325 gm I lose interest in a 16" ride. 1225-1275 gm handles it pretty well. Too "tingy" for my tastes when they are much heavier.

Recently ran across an earlier 16" ink stamped as "THIN RIDE"........I think it was a 50's or maybe 60's......possibly a trans stamp. Was sort of surprised to see that double inking.

yeah, I get that “what the bleep were they thinking” all the time when I look at old cymbals. Looking at 1930s drum catalog’s take on Hi-Hats still blows my mind.

edit - I have that same aversion to heavy cymbals across the board.

 

[Franklin Nigel Stein]

T. Bruce Wittet, talking about his 17" Zil med/hvy, or 15" Sabian sound control crash, said that for recording, the mic can't tell a little cymbal from a big one-- I never tested that to that extreme.

I live near L A and one of my close friends has been touring and recording more than 40 years as a percussionist. His take on it is that way more records were made with 13 and even 12 inch HHs than you’d think. I’m sure the difference for crashes and rides follows that pattern as well.

 

[multijd]

I have a very nice 16” A from the 1950’s (I believe). It is one half of a pair of hihats. It is a wonderful crash ride. Also a 14” K (Old constantinople). It has the most beautiful crash and ride sound. It depends on the touch with both of these. It’s not that they will get out of control (in fact that is the mark of a good ride, that it stays under control and articulates the pattern) but how hitting the small surface area seems to excite the cymbal in a unique way. Your touch has to follow your ear.

 

[Seb77]

With a controlled touch you can use quite a few 16" crashes as low-volume rides.
However, with smaller (or thinner) cymbals, even if it doesn't wash out, the wash still changes a lot more than with larger, heavier ones, where you get a more even "floating" wash sound underneath.

With heavier 16" cymbals with no model designation, keep in mind they might have been designed as one of a pair of marching cymbals.

 

[A.TomicMorganic]

When I studied with Ed Thigpen, he had a 16" ride.

 

[Franklin Nigel Stein]

With a controlled touch you can use quite a few 16" crashes as low-volume rides.
However, with smaller (or thinner) cymbals, even if it doesn't wash out, the wash still changes a lot more than with larger, heavier ones, where you get a more even "floating" wash sound underneath.

With heavier 16" cymbals with no model designation, keep in mind they might have been designed as one of a pair of marching cymbals.

That is part of the struggle identifying these thing. And if you go back far enough, you probably bought them from a pile and made your own decision what they were for.

But then there’s the ink. This inked 14in “PAPER THIN RIDE” recently sold on eBay. 614g. 1950s. Shrug.

Zildjian - Vintage 14" Paper Thin Ride | eBay

Here's a great find. Copy and paste the youtube link for an audio/video example of this exact cymbal.

www.ebay.com

 

[JDA]

I have a 16" Medium Ride 1267 I bought it to use as a hihat bottom. it's response is more in-line with the response I get with old Ks
new Stamp 1275 Type IV 1271 and Intermediate 1043 I also own. Another 16 A at 947 I have has little to no ride sharing/capabilities unless you consider riding to be every stroke/tap a fulsome explosion which I don't some do.






I like small amounts of unusual A's without going crazy
early 70s A &Cies etc

 

[egw]

I've got an 80's hollow logo Zildjian "Light Ride" that as far as I can tell is identical to a medium-thin crash.

 

[JDA]

I've got an 80's hollow logo Zildjian "Light Ride" that as far as I can tell is identical to a medium-thin crash.

sounds like a great hi hat top EG

 

[shuffle]

I have a 16" Sabian crash ride and a cracked 16" A. Zildjian.
They both are great at both uses.

 

[K.O.]

I bought a 16" cymbal a couple of years ago at the Chicago Drum Show (from Mike Layton) that is factory stamped as a "crash ride". I haven't really done a lot with it but I thought it was neat to find such a small cymbal that was intended for ride use.

Granted drummers generally used smaller cymbals in the 1930s & 40s with the sizes creeping up as time passed but this cymbal looks to be from the early 1970s when such a small ride would be somewhat unexpected.

I also bought a 28" ride at the same show so I brought home both the smallest and largest rides in my collection.

 

[Franklin Nigel Stein]

I bought a 16" cymbal a couple of years ago at the Chicago Drum Show (from Mike Layton) that is factory stamped as a "crash ride". I haven't really done a lot with it but I thought it was neat to find such a small cymbal that was intended for ride use.

Granted drummers generally used smaller cymbals in the 1930s & 40s with the sizes creeping up as time passed but this cymbal looks to be from the early 1970s when such a small ride would be somewhat unexpected.

I also bought a 28" ride at the same show so I brought home both the smallest and largest rides in my collection.

View attachment 515408

It’s not unheard of to come upon a 16in ride from the 70s, but it is uncommon. I wonder if they started out to make a cymbal like that or if they decided it after completion.

 

[JDA]

the former
i'd say there existed a market however small, possibly dwindling, for medium, light and crash ride 16" and they knew it were aware of it = beforehand and allotted to make a few/many of each. It was probably the lathers task/responsibility for executing the order; even thickness from bell hole to edge for the thins and medium a slight edge taper but not full on crash edge in the crash ride. Could be a cup pressing consideration involved also but research not worth it on what's usually an $80 cymbal second hand (at least for this guy ) There's also an Avedis 16" hi Hat model to take in consideration too.
I have the 16" swish and it's a very extremely thin gem. Also a 16" Flatride needs to be added in the 16 " family believe +/- those existed or Bob took that idea (among other ideas) to Sabian with himself.

 

[Tama CW]

The only pedigreed 16" ride I've run across was made in 1967. It was selected at a music store in Dec 1967 for a young teens first drum kit and Christmas present......a simple 2 piece Ludwig kit with 18" bass drum and an Acrolite snare drum.
No hi hat cymbals - no crash cymbal.......just the 16" with the "RIDE" inking on it (1250 gm). And it rode well....crashed decently. But it seemed designed as a "ride" to me. I bought that 2 piece kit and the little bit of hardware that came with it.
What luck for the young kid that him Mom and music teacher picked out a "Jan '67" Ludwig Super classic 14x18 virgin bass drum for him in Bronze Mist Lacquer....talk about "unicorns." In the 3 yrs since I first saw that bass drum, I've not
seen another Ludwig Superclassic BML drum in ANY size, anywhere. One of the best 2 piece kits ever imo.

That paper thin ride 14" posted earlier is the one I ran across and thought how odd it was. I thought it was a 16". At the same time, what do you do with it other than make it half a light hi hat pair? But very cool inked like that.
16 inch stamped RIDEs are hard enough to find. That's the only 14" inked RIDE I've run across.