18" Left Side Ride?

poetman

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I have a 22" old A in the main spot and need an LSR. I know a lot of guys play 18" on the left (and I am thinking particularly about the right old A), but I am afraid it will sound thin and lack presence. Anyone play an 18" on the left? Any audio or video of someone using an 18" LSR? Thanks!
 

poetman

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Thanks, Seb! Did you just have this helpful playlist lying around? I really dig the Dream Contact, K CUSD, and 19" A. You're right they sound thin (in a bad way) on their own, but mix well in a band--a big band no less! I'm curious what the weights are on these. Do you know?
 

Seb77

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Thanks, Seb! Did you just have this helpful playlist lying around? I really dig the Dream Contact, K CUSD, and 19" A. You're right they sound thin (in a bad way) on their own, but mix well in a band--a big band no less! I'm curious what the weights are on these. Do you know?
Yeah, I built this playlist over the last year or so, also as a reference for myself. The Dream is around 1470g, the K CusD is surprsingly thin, a little over 1200g I think, and the 19" A is just short of 1600g.
 

JDA

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any era Old K 18 is (from old $tamp to new stamp to Intermediate in-between) the ultimate
then there's the others.
 

JDA

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just watch for the old K 1900g and 2000g 18"s they're out there...
 

poetman

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What about in small group situations? How would one sound behind a horn or piano solo?
 

Tama CW

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I've tried numerous 18 in A's as a LSR + crash and it's tough finding something that really works. In focusing on 50's or earlier A's I've yet to find one. Rejected 4 Trans Stamps already. A 1260 gm 1970's A was pretty close but was more crash than ride.
Closest I think I've gotten with the A's is a 19" Trans stamp at 1690 gm. I use that 19" as my "18 A" LSR for now. It's more 20 than 18 so it gets the job done.
 

JDA

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How would one
one what..
1800-1900-2000g 18" old K? pretty darn strong...
it'd want to take over the stage (moreso than a regular 1477g one...)

for the right price I'd have tackled one.
..my 4 are in the 1468-1477-1521g range

I've left ridden them like a main in classic rock to swing and various settings
``````````

Bosphorus makes a model thruout multiple series) called "Thin Ride"
18/19 highly recommend (xxnot xcrashxxx..)

must say ink model: Thin Ride..
 
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Seb77

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What about in small group situations? How would one sound behind a horn or piano solo?
Of the ones on my playlist? No problem with any of the ones you said you liked. Riding on an 18" is often a rather high sound, but the KCusD and the Dream also have some lower overtones, a wider spread. Sometimes I like that behind piano etc., sometimes I like to stay out of the way even more, using a flat ride.
The 18" Mel also stays out of the way, but it's a bit more "in the face" because of its weight (1690g). This one to my ear sounds pretty close to Mel's actual Istanbul 18" (from the set he travelled with) which the Agop was modelled on, and he made it work:
 

JDA

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Istanbuls were a never ending bunny hole For me me. Bosphorus traditionals, Hammers were a hit right off the bat.

Out of dozens, of Istanbuls, AKs, Paiste SC, and others, the only cymbals to move me fully out of Old Ks for good were Bosphorus. Trads, Hammers, one antique.

And it was so easy.
but, everyone is different, that was/ is my Cymbalholic journey/ Experience

20" Thin Ride Traditional 1934g (basically an Elvin ride)
22" Jeff Hammer Ride 2520g
19" Antique Thin Ride 1633g
Traditional Dark 14" Hats 910/1100
20" Traditional Swish 1610g

a. Bosphorus for me, superseded my old Ks where no other cymbal could.
b. Now I will still use the old Ks hats and left with one new AK main.

That's my two paths depends on gig

extreme third path would be c. all Old Ks
hats, 18,20 and 22.

but there's no gig for that except for a recording
 
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tkillian

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At 1:45 i go to my 18" k dark thin

The camera was behind me and on my right side so its not giving the best representation of how nice this cymbal is as a left side crash/ride.

In person it has more articulation in the stick. A trumpet player who hires me a lot turned around after a solo at a gig years ago and said "you can play that cymbal behind my solo anytime you want".


So. It works for me but it seems most players use a 20" on the left these days?

 

poetman

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My Holic Family coming through for me! Thanks, brothers!

Some thoughts…

Here, it looks like George Hughes might be playing 20”/18” setup (see 5:00; 11:36). One of the difficulties with me adopting an 18” on my left is that the classic cymbal sound in my ear is Blakey’s or Elvin’s (22/20 and 20/20, respectively). Also, hearing a cymbal in isolation is vastly different than hearing it (or knowing how it will perform) in a band context. My ear is not attuned to 18”s. I am not as sure what to listen for.


Seb, when you say “Sometimes I like that behind piano etc., sometimes I like to stay out of the way even more, using a flat ride,” do you mean to suggest that lower pitched LSRs can get in the way or is it the wash they have whereas flat rides have more pronounced stick?


ThomasL, I agree with you on fearing that the 20” might sound too close to my 22”. JDA made a remark once on the Holic boards that an 18” on the left provides nice tension and sharp contrast to a 22” in the main, and that perspective has stayed with me. I have never felt like Blakey’s LSR was too close to his 22”, and I love the deep, low-end crash he gets from his, but he also hardly ever rode his LSR! I really like the "Lauritsen Trash Crash" setup you shared. Some 18"s feel like the band would collapse underneath them; while others feel great. I like all yours--this one in particular.


Jmoll, you have some of the tastiest gear! That 20" is THIN! I really appreciate your video because your 18" sounds thin by itself, but it does sound better with the play-along, and I am surprised by how thin it is!

JDA, you said “Bosphorus for me, superseded my old Ks where no other cymbal could.” How? What’s your AK main? Bosphorus have also sounded too thin to my ear, not meaty enough. Curious what you use.

Tom, I love that the horn player said that! That's how you know you have a keeper--when bandmates (non-drummers) compliment your cymbal sound. I like the contrast between your 22" and 18" in that clip!


Does anyone know of any record dates where we can hear an 18” with a live band, particularly with a horn? What do you all think about a good weight range for an 18"? Heavier ones tend to sound better by themselves, but maybe a thinner one would sound better with a band?
 
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JDA

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(they feel and respond the same)
What’s your AK main
(3013g 22" K Dark Medium )
Bosphorus have also sounded too thin to my ear, not meaty enough. Curious what you use.
20" Thin Ride Traditional 1934g (basically an Elvin ride)
22" Jeff Hammer Ride 2520g
19" Antique Thin Ride 1633g
Traditional Dark 14" Hats 910/1100
20" Traditional Swish 1610g

you have to hit them; then you learn how to back off them and lay into them...Have to learn them. And I stick towards the Traditional models (most like old Ks) don't get too far out into Syncopation or New Orleans or other lines; Stick close to home. (Masters instead of Masters Vintage for example..)
That too thin not meaty enough goes away in the Traditional line once you learn em. : )! acclimate to them. You tune your ears into them and it's love.
No looking back..
the hi hats are gentle beasts the 20 and 22 and the 19 and the swish are primo.
I just stay within and close to the Traditional lines and away from the permutated series.
I'm not trying to change the world but rather to stay in 'the tradition.
 
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Seb77

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Seb, when you say “Sometimes I like that behind piano etc., sometimes I like to stay out of the way even more, using a flat ride,” do you mean to suggest that lower pitched LSRs can get in the way or is it the wash they have whereas flat rides have more pronounced stick?
It's about lower tones getting in the way. Piano often plays in a medium-high range, and some lower cymbal tones get down into that same range, which can clash. The Dream Contact in particular has a low overtone that sometimes bugs me, it might depend on room acoustics or on the stick used. Other times, it's just fine, or it's just that my hearing is different.
With Tom's 18 K dark, I hear a pleasing, even spread, some low, middle and high tones that are sorted out, consonant with each other, and balanced in level, nothing sticking out. this might make them fit with any melody instrument. I also hear this in my KCusD and A Avedis - hm, all Zs :)
 

ThomasL

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This one seems a bit similar to the 18" Agop Mel. Some more recent Bos have a bit of trash like that. What's the weight?
It's about 1200 g. It might be a proto for the Special3/Syncopation series, but it's a bit different from any production model I've seen. I think I had a thread about it on cymbalholic; buying it allowed me to sell two LSR's I wasn't happy with (one of the few times this actually worked...).

Poetman: If your gigs allow crashing a 20" LSR with a little more meat, it can provide a nice contrast to the 22" main ride (like your Blakey example), but if you try to keep the volume down (like I often do), an 18 can offer pitch difference and better crashability IMO. I mainly ride it during piano and bass solos, or sometimes if the A section is in 2 I use the LSR and switch to the main for B.
 

stick2it

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As a second (for most drummers, left-side) cymbal, my go-to for jazz is an Istanbul Agop 19" 30th Anniversary Crash Cymbal (1529g) that often accompanies my 22" Agop Sig or sometimes a 20" Agop Vezir Jazz. The 19" 30th Anni has that spread, pitch, and complexity that blends well with other instruments and is different and complimentary to my Agop rides. (18s mostly seem a little thin and too distinct to my ear.) I drilled one hole in this cymbal for a rivet that, by itself, does wonders with brushes. (My 22" Agop Sig has no rivets, my Vezir Jazz Ride has 2 rivets.) Here is the MyCymbal sound file for this cymbal -- it's still live on the internet -- to give you an idea of what it offers; the drummer in this video seems intent on mostly crashing it which shows-off the cymbal's lovely, washy, warm crash but neglects it's fantastic riding qualities. I'm not sure why Istanbul Agop calls it a "Crash" when it seems more ride-worthy than the 18" Mel Lewis Crash Ride cymbal.

- One more option to consider in the long list of second cymbal possibilities. It's whatever each of us wants to hear, in the end.
 
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