2 20" Zildjians for sale

A.TomicMorganic

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Two 20" rides. One is '59/'60 with a slight keyhole weighing 1898 gr. The other is a '90s K weighing 2190 gr. Both very nice sounding darkish cymbals with good definition. Jazzy.
$150 each+ actual shipping costs.
 

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GeeDeeEmm

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Heck, guys! I wanted that K!!!!!! I'll claim third in line, I guess.

GeeDeeEmm
 

A.TomicMorganic

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A little more info on the remaining cymbal. It has 2 stamps! One slightly overlaps the other, and one is a small stamp and one is a trans stamp. Why I said it was '59-'60. It has a darkish smoky complex sound. Great sounding pie.
 

Tama CW

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A little more info on the remaining cymbal. It has 2 stamps! One slightly overlaps the other, and one is a small stamp and one is a trans stamp. Why I said it was '59-'60. It has a darkish smoky complex sound. Great sounding pie.
No trans stamp on this one. It's a late 50's small stamp and a 60's 3 dot stamp....possibly the 1.5" 60's stamp. The follow-on question I would have is what's a supposedly later 60's 1.5" stamp, rather than the 1.25" 60's small stamp doing on this cymbal?
 

A.TomicMorganic

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Zenstat says that there were three different stamping machines with three different stamps all on the factory floor at the same time at one point. Who knows? He also thinks that the larger stamp is the 1.5.
 

zenstat

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Yes it is a 1.5" 60s stamp and a late 50s Small Stamp overlapping according to my measurements on an image. I can't tell if the Small Stamp is SSA or SSB. I've measured out the height of the Small Stamp and the 1.5" and placed those line segments over on the side (called Short and Tall). I've also added how long a segment would be if that lower stamp were a Large Stamp Type 2. The original of this is better quality, but the DFO software has reduced that.

5060-measured.jpg



I have two observations to your follow on question. The first is that the 1.5" version of the 60s stamp being "later 60s" turns out to be a possible misinterpretation of what Bill Hartrick wrote in 2003 (from Vintage Drummer Vol 3(3):14-15 July 2003)

Screen Shot 2020-01-31 at 8.11.17 AM.png


There is good evidence that the 1.5" and 1 3/16" versions overlapped in use for many years. I suspect Bill overgeneralized from a small number of cymbals in suggesting that the 1.5" version was restricted to the later 60s. Either that or he never meant to exclude it from earlier in the 1960s but his choice of words was misinterpreted. I know I was thrown off until I stated to find contradictory evidence. We also now have strong evidence that the 1 3/16" version of the 60s stamp continued in use until the mid 1970s. Much has changed since Bill's pioneering work.

As to how double stamped cymbals happen, and how frequently they have two different stamps I can say that it is less than 0.5% or so of the cymbals I've examined so far (over 3,000). The low frequency means you have to examine a lot of cymbals to find the exceptions. But the exceptions are the ones which tell us what is possible and give us a glimpse into what the factory processes were which lead to the patterns we see on cymbals. Of the double stamped cymbals with two different stamps, most are adjacent in the timeline. In other words one finds a late 50s stamp with a 60s stamp. Whether a 1.5" 60s stamp counts as adjacent to late 50s isn't clear yet because we really don't have enough information about the years of use and frequency of use of the 1.5" stamp.

Unusual cymbals appear from time to time and lead to interesting discussion and insights:


The insight from that one is that a cymbal might be in the factory for 7 years, which is independently verified from other evidence. Once you allow for the occasional cymbal to be in the factory for 7 years many of the previous complications (like a whole new stamp called "1954" whose attributes were way out of sequence) go away and are replaced by a simpler sequence. The manufacturing characteristics of a cymbal tell us when it was made. The trademark (or in this case trademarks) on a cymbal tell us which trademark was applied on the day it was trademarked. The trademark sequence may be 98% accurate in assessing manufacturing era, and the 2% of cymbals where that can be misleading does not undermine the usefulness of general sequence. But given that we are now able to document substantial overlaps in year of use in the factory for say the 60s 1 3/16", the 60s 1.5" and the 70s trademark dies we need to apply more caution in presuming usage doesn't overlap. There were three stamping machines (thus 3 different dies) in use so that 3 testers could be filling orders at the same time and not mix up orders as they pulled cymbals from the shelves and trademarked them prior to shipping. That is a game changer in terms of understanding the patterns we see.
 

Tama CW

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Could be late 50's. But more likely to be early 60's when all sets of stamps were in use. The lathing and other features on the cymbal is consistent with 50's (and some early 60's). Value is really unaffected either way. The dual stamps and light weight are the "cool" features.

Good to know that the 1.5" stamps aren't just later 60's. From the few I've run across, they always have the typical 60's "look." I've yet to run across a 1.5" stamp (the only stamp) on a cymbal where it also had late 50's style lathing. I've run across a number of 1.25" small stamp 60's where the lathing and look was "like" the later 50's. In any event, finding 60's stamped cymbals with a 50's look are tough to find.
 

pedro navahas

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Would love to hear that late 50’s ride, I’m still searching for that particular sound I hear in my head!
 

A.TomicMorganic

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I also have a late 60s cymbal that I bought new, and it is quite a bit more better mannered than the older one. The older one, because of lathing, has 2 different sounds besides the bell. The lower 4" or so sounds different than the top few inches, and you can see where the lathing is also different. The late 60s is lathed more evenly, and the sound equally as even.
 

A.TomicMorganic

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Bump. The K is gone, but I'm giving you one more chance to score a great late 50s Zildjian ride cymbal.
 


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