60's Rogers Holiday Blue Sparkle kit revisited

joe seph

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After all the good advice I received from members here, the buyer has taken me to task on Reverb about color. I posted 10 pics here in March.
After the sale, I decided to throw the original heads on before shipping and noticed the 20", 16", and 12" all were a lighter color around the shell edges.
Even though the 12" and 20" tags indicated they were both made in 64', the 12" did appear to be a little darker. The dealer, Bob McKee, has impeccable credentials and I'm guessing, since I purchased these in 82', that it may have been a 'thrown together' kit. Some on this site indicated this was common practice-possibly even at the factory. I offered him an $80. 'fagetabodit' for the excess cost of shipping the throne and stand and then offered to buy all 3 drums back. He declined. Now Reverb wants me to settle somehow. I consider you guys the experts on all things drums, so any advice is welcomed. The 3 drums, pedal, rack&swivel arms, damper, throne, and stand sold for $975.+230. shipping to Burbank, Ca.
 

Tama CW

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Ouch. One reason why I've never shipped out drum kits as buyers will almost always have an issue with any marks, color differences, that were not fully detailed and disclosed in the original listing. I list EVERY flaw I can find on anything I sell on Reverb....and no doubt discourage most potential buyers as they must figure the stuff is junk with so many "flaws" listed.

Don't assume Bob McKee "threw together" this kit. In your original post JPTrickster felt this kit reasonably qualified as a "factory" kit. The factory did throw kits together with different years and possibly different batches of wraps. Any buyer wants "perfection" in what they expect from an item and will try to buy as cheaply as they can too. Most of the time we expect more than the item actually delivers. Human nature. Once in the buyer's hand....every mole hill of a defect seems to be a mountain. They rarely look better than you expect once in hand. I'm not a bit surprised the blue sparkle is more vivid where it was protected under the rims. Seems normal to me. And you were quite up front about saying the 16" was tagged 3 yrs later. I don't see how the buyer can hold you accountable for ensuring complete pedigree, history, and minutia on the condition of the drums. You bought the drums in 1982. That doesn't mean you're solely responsible for diagnosing every potential seller quibble on the kit . It would never end. We all want great bearing edges, no scratches, no lifting, no rust, matching colors or hues, all original tension rods and washers, tags without a wrinkle or tear sitting perfectly flat on the shell, etc. And it almost never happens. Sounds more like Buyer's Remorse to me. They wanted a great deal and now are disappointed they didn't get these drums in the condition they hoped they would be. A copy of the REVERB ad would be helpful to see what you actually promised. If the buyer was a member here....they already knew that this was not a year-matched kit and Pandora's Box was already opened.

Did the photos show the slight color difference? If so, did you clearly present that issue? Was color matching specifically discussed? Drums that are 3 yrs difference in age could be expected to NOT be a great color match....or at best have slight differences. Perfect color matching is a great goal? Should it be expected as the norm on 40-60 yr old drums? You mentioned in an earlier thread that you had concerns it could be a "put together set." Were those thoughts passed along to the buyer? If so, what grounds would they have to expect color matching? Fwiw, every drum kit I've ever gone to see didn't measure up to my expectations when I arrived to see it. And in each case I asked detailed questions of the sellers. So clearly some of us have much higher expectations or goals. And I know I'd be horrible buyer to ship a drum set too. As a seller, if I noticed for the first time just before shipping that one of the drums was clearly darker in color, I'd have discussed with buyer before shipping.
 
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joe seph

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Hope this link works. Thanks for your input. I thought Reverb said something about cosmetic allowances for vintage instruments.
 

Tama CW

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Your photos clearly show that the 3 drums could have two different hues in the wrap vibrancy. The photo of the 12" does jump out as having a brighter blue sparkle wrap...at least based on the photos. If I were a buyer I'd have asked for a follow up look. The kit photo is under enough shadowing that you really can't make a call....the 12" and 16" look darker than the kick drum. From what I see you clearly showed the possibility of different hues in the 12" wrap. You had 37 years of storage/exposure with those drums in your possession. Should one expect all of them to "age" at the exact same rate? For one, the rack tom sits the highest up in a kit, and consequently sees less moisture from the floor (carpet, concrete, wood, etc.) which could affect it's "aging" in different ways than the others.

I thought Reverb said something about cosmetic allowances for vintage instruments.

Even if they do....ideally that's between 2 people with the same knowledge level and sharing similar expectations and experiences. Everyone views a "cosmetic allowance" different from the next guy. That's the problem. When viewing in hand both sides can assess it and discuss it before handing over $$$.
 
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DanC

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Even drums built in the same week might not match exactly. There were differences between batches of wrap, for sure. Those drums are beautiful, the chrome looks perfect etc. Worth every penny they sold for, in my opinion.

He declined to return them? That means he's pretty happy and just looking to make the deal better for himself.

Why is Reverb on your case if he declined to return them? What leverage do they have over you?
 

drumtimejohn

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Perhaps the buyer is doing you a favor by not asking for return labels. And you don’t want them returned because it’s going to cost you $230 each way. Those are very poor pics and the description is fair at best. Using only 4 of 25 photos, even if poor, is risky for any drum sale. IMHO you exposed yourself as a result. Respectfully, see if you can keep the refund to $230 and chalk it up as a lesson learned. Unfortunately, the seller knows you’re into this now for up to $460. With that in mind, a suggestion is to humbly ask how you can make it right. I’m bummed this happened to you.
 
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joe seph

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Well I lost. Reverb wants me to refund $220. to Alan Tooraen and he will send the tom back from Burbank Ca. He did ask several questions which I answered before closing the deal. None concerned color and the 12" was definitely in the best shape of the 3. I only inspected the chrome and wrap as they seemed to be the most impotant criteria. I don't remember noticing any color differences when I bought the set, but the sm. tom was definitely highest off the floor for the entire 37 years I had it. Who knew. I'm new to selling and learning the hard way. Anyone recommend a condition 'checklist' for different instruments? I don't want to repeat my mistakes. Thanks all. -Reverb just pulled my listing!
 

Tama CW

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For those that don't look at vintage drums all the time to learn by the school of hard knocks is to read a hundred vintage drum ads on Reverb and Ebay and see the detail (and reason for it) some sellers use, especially the bigger sellers. Same thing for the FOR SALE section right here on vintage kits. You'll run across nearly all the "what ifs" of "condition" that concern buyers and sellers. Copy what they do. This is something you should have done for starters. Frame your ad to the best and most detailed ones out there.....to protect yourself. Your ad was very short on details. I'm surprised the only thing the buyer could bring up was color matching. When I've listed a single cymbal on Ebay I've written at least a full page (400 words) and a dozen photos. For a kit it's 2x that and all 20 photos.

Your other option is to ignore Reverb and Paypal and try to minimize the chances they can claw back the money. There are certainly unreasonable sellers out there...and neither Reverb or Paypal are infallible with their decisions. And if you're a first time seller they might have some of those funds still on hold. In challenging them you'd probably lose their site privileges forever under your current name/information. Hey, the ONLY issue here is the color of the 12" tom....nothing else. 4 photos covered that adequately. So REVERB's new policy is that vintage drums must be color matched OR seller is at risk of a return if it's not discussed before hand. Good luck to all future sellers from here. What's next? All tension rods and washers must be assumed original such that if buyer disputes it, they can return a drum at your expense? What if the serial numbers are too far apart on that "original" kit someone bought new in 1966? What if an original kit has different and fully authentic OEM tags between the drums? There's no end to yanking on this chain.
 
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drumtimejohn

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Well I lost. Reverb wants me to refund $220. to Alan Tooraen and he will send the tom back from Burbank Ca. He did ask several questions which I answered before closing the deal. None concerned color and the 12" was definitely in the best shape of the 3. I only inspected the chrome and wrap as they seemed to be the most impotant criteria. I don't remember noticing any color differences when I bought the set, but the sm. tom was definitely highest off the floor for the entire 37 years I had it. Who knew. I'm new to selling and learning the hard way. Anyone recommend a condition 'checklist' for different instruments? I don't want to repeat my mistakes. Thanks all. -Reverb just pulled my listing!
It’s sad, sellers get burned. Your wisdom will grow from this experience. Certainly don’t give in by not selling in the future Joe. Tama CW has offered a ton of helpful tips to support a better experience next time. IMHO the best way a seller can insure oneself is through excellent pics, description, and packaging. Also remember a seller by default is in the business of customer service and building relationships. With that, caution on calling out the buyers name. From my experience most buyers are good people playing and collecting like the rest of us. I’m glad you’re connected to community that cares and will help.
 
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drumtimejohn

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As far as pics, in general, I will take 8 of each drum on a 3 piece and 1 of the full set just to start. 12” tom for example: 3 different sides with hoops off (usually covers the drum circumference to show any fading), each bearing edge, and 3 sides with hoops on. It’s a ton of work to do it right.
 

Rich K.

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Just to be clear... the buyer complained about the set and final result is that he sends back just the 12 and you refund $220 total? Just checking I got it right
 

Tama CW

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Just to be clear... the buyer complained about the set and final result is that he sends back just the 12 and you refund $220 total? Just checking I got it right
And basically this screws up what was formerly your set. And gives you back a lone tom to sell for potentially a much lower % of its value when no longer combined with a kit. You're going to take a second hit on that. So the buyer breaks off a date matched part of the kit and is now going to go out and hunt for a replacement 12" with better color match? And what are the odds you're going to get a good color match using the next seller's on line photos? This is all strange to me.
 
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wflkurt

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I think this sounds crazy too. The pics in your ad looked fine to me. I can't understand why someone would send this back. Maybe I'm missing something....
 

joe seph

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So I asked to see pictures of all 3 drum rims to see how much each color changed. The 12" tom is very dark even near the edge so I can't tell if it was ever a match-though the lighting seems lower than the other pics. He says #4 is my bass dr. It is not! When I removed the rim to pack the tom inside, there was a distinct 1" band much lighter than the rest of the finish. By coincidence, he earlier mentioned that the fl.& bass matched his other sets perfectly. The lighting is also brighter and there is also no discoloring on the supposed fl. tom. For 37 yrs. these drums were never more than 3ft. apart. What to do. Now he wants to send the throne and stand back (no reason). They're VG-EC. He never made full payment because the throne & stand were add ons for $25. plus shipping overage on everything. So there's that. This is really starting to stink and getting through to the same person on Reverb is like trying to talk to someone at Verizon!
 

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joe seph

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So I asked to see pictures of all 3 drum rims to see how much each color changed. The 12" tom is very dark even near the edge so I can't tell if it was ever a match-though the lighting seems lower than the other pics. He says #4 is my bass dr. It is not! When I removed the rim to pack the tom inside, there was a distinct 1" band much lighter than the rest of the finish. By coincidence, he earlier mentioned that the fl.& bass matched his other sets perfectly. The lighting is also brighter and there is also no discoloring on the supposed fl. tom. For 37 yrs. these drums were never more than 3ft. apart. What to do. Now he wants to send the throne and stand back (no reason). They're VG-EC. He never made full payment because the throne & stand were add ons for $25. plus shipping overage on everything. So there's that. This is really starting to stink and getting through to the same person on Reverb is like trying to talk to someone at Verizon!
Does anyone think pics 4,5,&6 look like rewraps? a little jagged along the edges and lighter and brighter than pics I posted a month ago. I hope Reverb agrees.
 

joe seph

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Appeal and send this entire thread to Reverb as your defense.
thanks. I would like to have these 'fraudulent' pictures analyzed. I think they're rewraps. I'm guessing he only wanted the bass and fl. tom all along. Trying to find a 64' 12" match instead of cleaning the drum first doesn't make much sense. This case could make it impossible to get a fair price for rare and quality vintage instruments.
 

JazzDrumGuy

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The 4 pics on the reverb ad are not great quality. The pic of the 12" looks like blue glass glitter but the FT and bass look like a different wrap to me (more modern).....but they are also blurry when I zoom in. And I am not a Rogers expert by any means.....mostly Slingy & Gretsch. The 12 he sent you doesn't look like yours but the others look the same. Very odd here......

Selling kits is a pain. You have to send all kinds of pics of everything, and I describe each drum down to the washers and document everything so the seller can't make up BS. The whole piecemeal deal and add ons sounds hokey too (ie: don't do that again).

I would suck it up, get all items back and pay for the s/h and learn a lesson and try to resell again. Shite happens...it sucks.
 

Tama CW

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Appeal and send this entire thread to Reverb as your defense.
I agree. The stink of this transaction is increasing. Add ons without getting money up front? Sounds like the buyer was setting you up. Maybe Reverb can do a site visit to the buyer as they reps around the country. For extra items I'd have at least created a new listing with a "fat price" and had the buyer make the appropriate offer on so you got paid for it. Both you and Reverb should check out the buyer's history on Reverb. What have they bought? How many other "problem" transactions? If this were me I wouldn't be taking this laying down. It's your money, fight for it. Wouldn't it be interesting if the buyer were a member here too?

If you got your drums in the early 80's it's not so likely they were rewraps. And the edges were faded as you stated, then those were probably original blue sparkle wraps. If you took more detailed photos of all the "warts" on your drums for the Reverb ad, there would be no way for a buyer to make a swap for your drums and claim "foul." If you know of any "warts" on your kick drum or floor tom, present them to reverb as well. There had to have been marks or slights cuts in the wrap somewhere. Paper drum tags are hard to swap too. Ask the buyer for photos of those or a video of the drum in question including scarf joints. Of course those are things you should have verified long ago and documented in your ad.

The photos the buyer sent to EBay sure do look like rewraps....way different than the 12". Now have them send you video proof of those newer looking wraps having your badges on the inside. Who knows if those are your drums they photographed. They could be....or they might not be.
 
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