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A Avedis 21" Ride

D. B. Cooper

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Just to update... My 21" A Avedis ride came in yesterday. (Yay, FedEx actually got something here on time! lol) I've played it a lot so far. It's a great sounding cymbal by itself. As I had thought, it goes very well with my other cymbals. I played it along with some music last night. Many different styles of music.. from jazz to R&B to classic rock. That's where the true beauty of this cymbal seems to shine. The stick definition when the cymbal is played by itself is very good but you also hear a lot of wash, which is fine. But playing it in context with music, the stick definition really comes through and the wash is at a level/pitch that sits in the mix with beautiful support. Add to that, a really clear and good sounding bell and a nice controllable crash sound. I'm super happy with it and can't wait to play it live with real musicians. I've got a jam coming up in a few weeks (a tribute to a local sax player that passed away) and plan to use my small kit with my A Avedis 15" hats, 19" Kerope, and this 21" A Avedis. Tried out that combo today and they sound amazing together!

On another note: What is everyone's thoughts on adding rivets to this cymbal? I'm obviously not going to do that anytime soon, as I want to play it as is for awhile. But I'm wondering if that might even take it to yet another level. Thoughts?

Sounds like a great purchase! Nice review as well, sounds really versatile.

I love adding rivets to cymbals. Gives you another option and color on the pallette. Maybe start with 1 and add them from there until you get the sound you like?
 

Rick

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Sounds like a great purchase! Nice review as well, sounds really versatile.

I love adding rivets to cymbals. Gives you another option and color on the pallette. Maybe start with 1 and add them from there until you get the sound you like?
I'm definitely going to play it awhile "as is" but will be thinking about possibly adding rivets in the future. I get the feeling this one might be really good with that. But I'm so happy with it now that I'm not sure if I want to mess around with an already good thing. On another note... I'm glad to know you survived that jump out of the 727! lol
 

D. B. Cooper

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I'm definitely going to play it awhile "as is" but will be thinking about possibly adding rivets in the future. I get the feeling this one might be really good with that. But I'm so happy with it now that I'm not sure if I want to mess around with an already good thing. On another note... I'm glad to know you survived that jump out of the 727! lol
Thanks!
It was a rough ride!
 

Rick

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Thanks!
It was a rough ride!
The good news is you should have plenty of money left over for gear! ;-)

I flew the 727 years ago for TWA when I was starting my career as an airline pilot. Interestingly after "your" little incident, they added a lock on the exterior of the aft airstair door. It was a little piece of metal that had a flap on it that, with enough airflow over it, it would pivot to cover the edge of the airstair door and prevent it from being able to be opened from the inside during flight. Guess what it was called? "The D.B. Cooper Lock!" lol
 

D. B. Cooper

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The good news is you should have plenty of money left over for gear! ;-)

I flew the 727 years ago for TWA when I was starting my career as an airline pilot. Interestingly after "your" little incident, they added a lock on the exterior of the aft airstair door. It was a little piece of metal that had a flap on it that, with enough airflow over it, it would pivot to cover the airstair door and prevent it from being able to be opened from the inside during flight. Guess what it was called? "The D.B. Cooper Lock!" lol

That's great. Glad to hear I could make the world a better, safer place.
 

DBT

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My 21” A Hollow logo . I call him Bubba ……. 3600 grams .
 

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zenstat

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My 21” A Hollow logo . I call him Bubba ……. 3600 grams .

At 3600g your 21" sits well within the weight range of the Rock21 model. There is still some confusion about the two 21" Rock models which came out in 1973. After a few years the distinction between the Rock21 (a bit heavier with the Large Cup) and the 21" Rock Ride (a little lighter with the Special Cup) seemed to go away in favor of just one 21" model in the Rock theme. Here is the 1974 ad showing the Rock21 was still separate then

rock21-1974-ad.jpg


and the descriptions from the catalog around that time.

Rock21-vs-Rock.png


I'm also seeing some confusion about the A Avedis series (2016 to present but flagged as not currently in production as of 2022) and the A Zildjian series. Another unfortunate naming convention by the A Zildjian company which keeps on causing confusion. Bubba is an A Zildjian not an A Avedis. I'd be interested to know if your Bubba ever had model ink to your knowledge? Bubba could also have either the CO stamp or the 70s Thin Stamp. If you can identify the stamp that would help as well.

1970s Thin Stamp identification

mid 1982 CO. Stamp identification

There has been some discussion about the weight variation in the A Avedis series in this thread. Attached is the official Zildjian document on weight ranges as linked on my site


Note that I've found a few typos in this document, with the weight ranges for the 21" are too wide. I need to review my notes on just what other things I identified as problematic and how I can tell. It has to do with a multi year study of variation in cymbal weights from the A Zildjian company which is still ongoing. I'll post the details when I get a chance.
 

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DBT

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At 3600g your 21" sits well within the weight range of the Rock21 model. There is still some confusion about the two 21" Rock models which came out in 1973. After a few years the distinction between the Rock21 (a bit heavier with the Large Cup) and the 21" Rock Ride (a little lighter with the Special Cup) seemed to go away in favor of just one 21" model in the Rock theme. Here is the 1974 ad showing the Rock21 was still separate then

View attachment 576405

and the descriptions from the catalog around that time.

View attachment 576406

I'm also seeing some confusion about the A Avedis series (2016 to present but flagged as not currently in production as of 2022) and the A Zildjian series. Another unfortunate naming convention by the A Zildjian company which keeps on causing confusion. Bubba is an A Zildjian not an A Avedis. I'd be interested to know if your Bubba ever had model ink to your knowledge? Bubba could also have either the CO stamp or the 70s Thin Stamp. If you can identify the stamp that would help as well.

1970s Thin Stamp identification

mid 1982 CO. Stamp identification

There has been some discussion about the weight variation in the A Avedis series in this thread. Attached is the official Zildjian document on weight ranges as linked on my site


Note that I've found a few typos in this document, with the weight ranges for the 21" are too wide. I need to review my notes on just what other things I identified as problematic and how I can tell. It has to do with a multi year study of variation in cymbal weights from the A Zildjian company which is still ongoing. I'll post the details when I get a chance.
Very cool info . Out of the 20 something Hollow Logo’s I have had since they were new this is one I always wanted but eluded me and I bought not long ago . The minute I saw the big cup it had Rock and my name written all over it . The ad you displayed is spot on , it is POWERFUL and cuts . Should have posted these pics as well . I was hoping to find some ghost Rock stamp on it when it came but it’s gone . I have various A rides from 18” to 24” and I’m 99.9 percent sure he’s the later real deal . You are the resident expert and I trust what you say . Much appreciated Zen . Early 80’?
 

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Cliff DeArment

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My Rock21 is about 3100g (70's stamp). Interesting the stamp is 60's. A hollow logo without Rock21 ink and higher weight, I'd bet Rock Ride.
 

zenstat

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Very cool info . Out of the 20 something Hollow Logo’s I have had since they were new this is one I always wanted but eluded me and I bought not long ago . The minute I saw the big cup it had Rock and my name written all over it . The ad you displayed is spot on , it is POWERFUL and cuts . Should have posted these pics as well . I was hoping to find some ghost Rock stamp on it when it came but it’s gone . I have various A rides from 18” to 24” and I’m 99.9 percent sure he’s the later real deal . You are the resident expert and I trust what you say . Much appreciated Zen . Early 80’?

Bubba has the CO. trademark stamp. That trademark is currently found on cymbals from 1982 to 1987, although the years could be extended if I come across later or earlier ones. The year specific details are based on an ongoing review of the model/diameter specific introduction years and discontinued years for all the models and diameters. It's not finished yet, but has already led to some surprises

60s stamps (both tall and short) last from early 1960s to 1976 with substantial overlapping years. I suspect (but haven't yet got good proof) that the tall 1.5" version came into use a bit later than the short version and that's why there are so many more cymbals with the short (1.25") version. It may well be (but isn't yet proven) that the late 50s small stamps also overlap with the first few years of the 60s stamps. This overlap may be entirely due to cymbals sitting in the vault for a few years before being selected to fill an order. This is the "time lag" effect. The trademark stamp only went on when the cymbal was pulled out, tested, and headed out to fill an order. The "time lag" effect is different from the two 60s stamps being in use at the same time. There really were different dies in use on the same day in the factory in the later 60s, 70s, 80s. Which dies depended on the decade.

The 70s stamp (preferred name now Thin Stamp) was in use from some time in the mid 70s until 1993. It was in use for more years outside the 1970s than during the 1970s. Hence the proposed shift to a less misleading name. :)

The CO. stamp as above from 1982 to 1987, and use overlaps with the Thin Stamp. Once again this looks like a case of multiple trademark stamps in use in the factory on the same day, but the evidence is still under analysis. It doesn't currently look like a case of "time lag".

There are a number of Rock Rides, Crashes, and Hats which have the 60s stamp. Those are ones which got the 60s stamp because it was still in factory use until 1976. Same with a few other models which came out in the early 1970s. They have 60s stamps. This also explains why New Beats started out with 60s stamps although they were only released as a pair in 1970. There are a number of small revisions in years needed on my site which I haven't gotten to yet. The new evidence on the years of use for stamps also explains why we find "unusual" combinations of stamps and ink (eg 60s stamp and Hollow Ink Zildjian on the same cymbal). The "unusual" combinations appear in the sorts of percentages one would expect based on the new model of how different attributes changed over time.
 

zenstat

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By way of linkage, the A Avedis series was given the 60s short stamp, brought out of retirement by Paul Frances. How do I know? He told me, plus I bought a used 18" (1337g) which came up for a reasonable price locally. So I've checked very closely for all the quirks or telltale features. This is one of several cymbal models issued in the last few years which also use the 60s short stamp. So like the Thin Stamp. the 60s stamp is in use for more years outside the 1960s than in the 1960s. ;-)

Now back to your original topic on the A Avedis series. And I've got to go and rest again. :-(
 
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DBT

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Bubba has the CO. trademark stamp. That trademark is currently found on cymbals from 1982 to 1987, although the years could be extended if I come across later or earlier ones. The year specific details are based on an ongoing review of the model/diameter specific introduction years and discontinued years for all the models and diameters. It's not finished yet, but has already led to some surprises

60s stamps (both tall and short) last from early 1960s to 1976 with substantial overlapping years. I suspect (but haven't yet got good proof) that the tall 1.5" version came into use a bit later than the short version and that's why there are so many more cymbals with the short (1.25") version. It may well be (but isn't yet proven) that the late 50s small stamps also overlap with the first few years of the 60s stamps. This overlap may be entirely due to cymbals sitting in the vault for a few years before being selected to fill an order. This is the "time lag" effect. The trademark stamp only went on when the cymbal was pulled out, tested, and headed out to fill an order. The "time lag" effect is different from the two 60s stamps being in use at the same time. There really were different dies in use on the same day in the factory in the later 60s, 70s, 80s. Which dies depended on the decade.

The 70s stamp (preferred name now Thin Stamp) was in use from some time in the mid 70s until 1993. It was in use for more years outside the 1970s than during the 1970s. Hence the proposed shift to a less misleading name. :)

The CO. stamp as above from 1982 to 1987, and use overlaps with the Thin Stamp. Once again this looks like a case of multiple trademark stamps in use in the factory on the same day, but the evidence is still under analysis. It doesn't currently look like a case of "time lag".

There are a number of Rock Rides, Crashes, and Hats which have the 60s stamp. Those are ones which got the 60s stamp because it was still in factory use until 1976. Same with a few other models which came out in the early 1970s. They have 60s stamps. This also explains why New Beats started out with 60s stamps although they were only released as a pair in 1970. There are a number of small revisions in years needed on my site which I haven't gotten to yet. The new evidence on the years of use for stamps also explains why we find "unusual" combinations of stamps and ink (eg 60s stamp and Hollow Ink Zildjian on the same cymbal). The "unusual" combinations appear in the sorts of percentages one would expect based on the new model of how different attributes changed over time.
So it seems to be the tail end of the Hollow Logo era , 1982ish based on the CO w/period and Hollow Logo correct ? Also , you have peeked my curiosity on if it’s a Rock 21 . I realize without the ink stamp it’s hard to pinpoint but the weight and Cup size seems to point in that direction right ? Did they still make the Rock 21 in 1982 ?
 

Bri6366

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A. Zildjian Rock Ride players in 1980 (21" unless otherwise stated)-

Ed Shaughnessy
Les De Merle
Clem Burke (20" and he also played a 22" Ping Ride)
Peter Criss
Roger Palm
Bev Bevan
Graham Lear
Billy Kreutzmann
Mikey Hart
Bun E Carlos (20" also 20" Earth Ride)
Brian Downey 20"
Simon Crowe
John Wilcox 20"
John Robinson
Anton Fig
Richie Fontana
 

zenstat

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So it seems to be the tail end of the Hollow Logo era , 1982ish based on the CO w/period and Hollow Logo correct ? Also , you have peeked my curiosity on if it’s a Rock 21 . I realize without the ink stamp it’s hard to pinpoint but the weight and Cup size seems to point in that direction right ? Did they still make the Rock 21 in 1982 ?

There was a general change to A Zildjian model ink which came in during 1982. The diameter was added under the model and weight class ink. The model and weight class became a single ink stamp rather than two separate stamps (which were sometimes applied far apart). It seems likely that this is the point at which the Rock21 designation was dropped, and the 21" Rock Ride model was folded in with the Rock21. The trouble I've had is despite collecting all the examples I can lay hands on I still can't be 90% sure when one model was discontinued, and which bell was the one which stayed in use on the 21" Rock Ride, and which weight range was used on the model which stayed in production. Just to confound the issue there is the general weight gain for cymbals across the A Zildjian offerings in the early 1980s, and I'm still trying to get a better handle on that as well. But yes, yours does look like a Rock21 to me. It could have had this ink

21-ROCKx-top.jpg


21-ROCKx-ink.jpg
21-ROCKx-stamp.jpg



but with the hollow ink on the bottom. But more likely would be this earlier style ink (pre diameter)

21-3180-top.jpg


Less likely is the even earlier Groovy style ink (those usually have a 60s stamp ;-) which use to be an oddity) which lasted until 1976(ish) just in time to have some with hollow Zildjian ink.

21-3146-stamp.jpg



We're right on a changeover point, as I was discussing before. Not all the attributes change in lock step.

And just to add another player to the 1980 players list Brian posted:


buddy-invoice.jpg
 
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hsosdrum

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I purchased a Rock 21 brand-new in 1974 and it also had that "Groovy" style stamp. I don't remember any other ink on it. (All the ink disappeared the first time I cleaned the cymbal, which I periodically did back then when I was a road warrior trying to become a rock star.) I sold it in 1982, otherwise I'd weigh it and photograph it for Zenstat.

P.S. Hats off to @zenstat for the stellar work they continue to do on the Cymbal Wiki. :thumbup: :thumbup:
 

Cliff DeArment

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How did I not see that CO.!? Getting slacky. Just like you, hsodrum, I wiped off the groovy and hollow logo ink when I cleaned it. Ziljdian was always a little late on style trends. Being "groovy" was done by 1970 (for good reason).

 

hsosdrum

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I think Zildjian is using different ink since the 1990s. I have a Swish Knocker bought new in 1995 (A3015-XXXXXXXX s/n, 2422 g) that I've cleaned several times (using a paste made with Ajax cleanser + water, same as I've been using to clean cymbals since the late '60s) and the logos, although faded, stubbornly remain. Cymbals I bought new in the '70s and '80s lost their logos after a single such cleaning.
 

DBT

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There was a general change to A Zildjian model ink which came in during 1982. The diameter was added under the model and weight class ink. The model and weight class became a single ink stamp rather than two separate stamps (which were sometimes applied far apart). It seems likely that this is the point at which the Rock21 designation was dropped, and the 21" Rock Ride model was folded in with the Rock21. The trouble I've had is despite collecting all the examples I can lay hands on I still can't be 90% sure when one model was discontinued, and which bell was the one which stayed in use on the 21" Rock Ride, and which weight range was used on the model which stayed in production. Just to confound the issue there is the general weight gain for cymbals across the A Zildjian offerings in the early 1980s, and I'm still trying to get a better handle on that as well. But yes, yours does look like a Rock21 to me. It could have had this ink

View attachment 576433

View attachment 576434 View attachment 576435


but with the hollow ink on the bottom. But more likely would be this earlier style ink (pre diameter)

View attachment 576438

Less likely is the even earlier Groovy style ink (those usually have a 60s stamp ;-) which use to be an oddity) which lasted until 1976(ish) just in time to have some with hollow Zildjian ink.

View attachment 576437


We're right on a changeover point, as I was discussing before. Not all the attributes change in lock step.

And just to add another player to the 1980 players list Brian posted:


View attachment 576432
When I obtained Bubba I had no clue about the Rock 21 emblem , I was just looking for something with “Rock” . I’ll do another inspection on it when I can now that I know what I’m looking for . That 21 ink has some sweeping curves to it , maybe I’ll pick up a shadow of it on closer inspection . Thank you Zenstat .
 
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DBT

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How did I not see that CO.!? Getting slacky. Just like you, hsodrum, I wiped off the groovy and hollow logo ink when I cleaned it. Ziljdian was always a little late on style trends. Being "groovy" was done by 1970 (for good reason).

Shoot me now !
 


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