A Tale of Two Bounce Rides

[jptrickster]

better pics

 

[kzac]

Hello fellow cymbal-heads!!

I have made a shoot-out video between two bounce rides (one of which I recently sold to a dfo member) that I believe have striking differences and I’m curious if anyone else has bounce ride observations that could corroborate my theory.

Basically, I have noticed that early bounce rides from about 2010 (AJ serial #) look and sound quite different from subsequent models. Has anyone else notices this? The pin lathing grooves are MUCH deeper and the cluster hammering is much more pronounced on those early models.

the first bounce ride I demo in the video is from 2017 and it’s 2466g. It’s much cleaner and sweeter. It’s an absolutely killing cymbal that I will miss but once I got my hands on the older model I knew I had found what I was looking for.

the second ride is from 2010 and has all the aforementioned early bounce ride qualities plus a gorgeous patina. To my ear, it sounds much closer to the demo made by K Wash and Paul Francis when they debuted around 2010. I have played Kenny’s bounce in a lesson I took from him and if I recall correctly it has the deeper pin lathes and hammer marks as well.

I wrote to Paul Francis to ask about this and he told me the bounces had never been redesigned and chalked it up to every cymbal being different but I still think that the older ones have a different mojo that is related to their production process and not just age. I suppose it could be related to the all around K Con revamp around 2011-2012?

Anyway, if anyone has bounce rides they would like to post in this thread I would really appreciate the insights! For example, if your ride has those deep pin lathe grooves and deeper cluster hammer marks I would be very curious about the serial number on it.

thanks all for reading!!



In the photos: 2010 on left and 2017 on right
View attachment 527394 View attachment 527395
View attachment 527396
View attachment 527397

The short and terse answer to your question is yes the cymbals sound different. all cymbals sound different. But that answer does not explain why



Cymbal making process

Raw materials
Cymbals are a mixture of metal alloys and there is some variation in the mixture of those alloys (not exact). When smelting metals you can get them close but never exact in purity. When combining molten metals, again you get the mixture close but never exactly some percent of this VS another percent of these other ingredients. Therefore, the raw materials are not exactly the same

Pressing (shaping)
Raw materials are pressed into an initial shape (disk). A lathe is used to cut the pressed disk down to a general (not specific) size. There will be some slight variation in the overall size.

Sound machining
Cymbal disks are machined to produce sound via a couple of common processes
Hammering (either machine or hand hammered)
Turning on a lathe (grooves cut into the raw material)
Heat can be applied to cause the cymbals to harden which can result in sound variatin

Finishing
Cymbals will go through a couple of processes for finishing
Go through an abrasion process to remove sharp edges caused during machining. This is most commonly done with a metal or ceramic material in a vibratory cleaner or tumbler (Roto Finisher) .
Afterword the cymbals are washed and then most are coated to keep them from tarnishing.

All of these processes include some acceptable variation. None of them are absolute. Therefore, the product which results from these processes is never identical. Imagine the variation created by a wearing lathe bit over time. The grooves start out with a very distinct “V” shape but tun into a “U” shape as the bit wears. You can’t see that with the naked eye but with a microscope, it can easily be observed. However, that variation will cause cymbals to sound different.

Finally there is years of playing and cleaning a cymbal …. Playing a cymbal is an impact process and the harder the impact material the more it can round off sharp grooves etc. The same can be said for cleaning a cymbal with an abrasive such as comet cleanser.

Any of these things can cause cymbal sound to vary and that is exactly what you are experiencing.
Hope that helps explain the variation ...

Its the very reason I always state .... select cymbals by how they sound when you play them... opposed to selecting cymbal based upon a marketing brand or line.

 

[ThomasL]

Thomas my question for you is would you characterize the pin lathing circles as being deep, ie if you run your finger nail along does it go down into the groove? That is the other primary difference between my 2010 model and 2017 model, the 2017 pin lathing grooves are much more shallow to the point of being superficial. Thank you for posting this Thomas!!

This is difficult to say as I don't own the cymbal anymore, but in this picture, the pin lathing lines at the bottom of the pic are deep enough to create a clear shadow:

The difference between your two cymbals is quite striking to me. My first reaction on my Bounce was that the hammering was completely different from the usual K Con hammering (just like your AJ one). The other one looks like a 'typical' K Con, only with the characteristic Bounce bell.

 

[Captured Saint]

Hello fellow cymbal-heads!!

I have made a shoot-out video between two bounce rides (one of which I recently sold to a dfo member) that I believe have striking differences and I’m curious if anyone else has bounce ride observations that could corroborate my theory.

Basically, I have noticed that early bounce rides from about 2010 (AJ serial #) look and sound quite different from subsequent models. Has anyone else notices this? The pin lathing grooves are MUCH deeper and the cluster hammering is much more pronounced on those early models.

the first bounce ride I demo in the video is from 2017 and it’s 2466g. It’s much cleaner and sweeter. It’s an absolutely killing cymbal that I will miss but once I got my hands on the older model I knew I had found what I was looking for.

the second ride is from 2010 and has all the aforementioned early bounce ride qualities plus a gorgeous patina. To my ear, it sounds much closer to the demo made by K Wash and Paul Francis when they debuted around 2010. I have played Kenny’s bounce in a lesson I took from him and if I recall correctly it has the deeper pin lathes and hammer marks as well.

I wrote to Paul Francis to ask about this and he told me the bounces had never been redesigned and chalked it up to every cymbal being different but I still think that the older ones have a different mojo that is related to their production process and not just age. I suppose it could be related to the all around K Con revamp around 2011-2012?

Anyway, if anyone has bounce rides they would like to post in this thread I would really appreciate the insights! For example, if your ride has those deep pin lathe grooves and deeper cluster hammer marks I would be very curious about the serial number on it.

thanks all for reading!!



In the photos: 2010 on left and 2017 on right
View attachment 527394 View attachment 527395
View attachment 527396
View attachment 527397

I have a 20" Bounce ride...serial AG which I think dates it from 2017. Guy I purchased it from in 2019 said he had only had it 18 months or so. The weight is 1904g.

 

[JDA]

Detail of what a 22" NS oldK (aka Washington ride basis for AK bounce) looks like,
Closer to the 2010 yey/nay.. (build)
Mine.

 

[slcdrummer]

View attachment 527783


Detail of what a 22" NS oldK (aka Washington ride basis for AK bounce) looks like,
Closer to the 2010 yey/nay.. (build)
Mine.

View attachment 527782 View attachment 527783 View attachment 527784 View attachment 527785 View attachment 527786 View attachment 527787 View attachment 527788

View attachment 527785

JDA that thing is killing. Absolutely gorgeous

 

[slcdrummer]

I have a 20" Bounce ride...serial AG which I think dates it from 2017. Guy I purchased it from in 2019 said he had only had it 18 months or so. The weight is 1904g.

Love it, thank you captured saint!

 

[slcdrummer]

This is difficult to say as I don't own the cymbal anymore, but in this picture, the pin lathing lines at the bottom of the pic are deep enough to create a clear shadow:
View attachment 527755

The difference between your two cymbals is quite striking to me. My first reaction on my Bounce was that the hammering was completely different from the usual K Con hammering (just like your AJ one). The other one looks like a 'typical' K Con, only with the characteristic Bounce bell.

I’m totally with you, I think you and Zenstat have opened my eyes to that being perhaps the biggest difference between the AJ’s and the more recent ones, in addition to pin grooves and the clusters. Thanks so much for your insights on this.

 

[slcdrummer]

The short and terse answer to your question is yes the cymbals sound different. all cymbals sound different. But that answer does not explain why



Cymbal making process

Raw materials
Cymbals are a mixture of metal alloys and there is some variation in the mixture of those alloys (not exact). When smelting metals you can get them close but never exact in purity. When combining molten metals, again you get the mixture close but never exactly some percent of this VS another percent of these other ingredients. Therefore, the raw materials are not exactly the same

Pressing (shaping)
Raw materials are pressed into an initial shape (disk). A lathe is used to cut the pressed disk down to a general (not specific) size. There will be some slight variation in the overall size.

Sound machining
Cymbal disks are machined to produce sound via a couple of common processes
Hammering (either machine or hand hammered)
Turning on a lathe (grooves cut into the raw material)
Heat can be applied to cause the cymbals to harden which can result in sound variatin

Finishing
Cymbals will go through a couple of processes for finishing
Go through an abrasion process to remove sharp edges caused during machining. This is most commonly done with a metal or ceramic material in a vibratory cleaner or tumbler (Roto Finisher) .
Afterword the cymbals are washed and then most are coated to keep them from tarnishing.

All of these processes include some acceptable variation. None of them are absolute. Therefore, the product which results from these processes is never identical. Imagine the variation created by a wearing lathe bit over time. The grooves start out with a very distinct “V” shape but tun into a “U” shape as the bit wears. You can’t see that with the naked eye but with a microscope, it can easily be observed. However, that variation will cause cymbals to sound different.

Finally there is years of playing and cleaning a cymbal …. Playing a cymbal is an impact process and the harder the impact material the more it can round off sharp grooves etc. The same can be said for cleaning a cymbal with an abrasive such as comet cleanser.

Any of these things can cause cymbal sound to vary and that is exactly what you are experiencing.
Hope that helps explain the variation ...

Its the very reason I always state .... select cymbals by how they sound when you play them... opposed to selecting cymbal based upon a marketing brand or line.

Kzac thanks for your response. I’m sure everything you’ve written is true but I’m trying to identify 3 specific patterns from different time periods on one specific model of ride cymbal.

When it pertains to AJ serial (year 2010) number Zildjian 22” Constantinople bounce rides we have established that they at least somewhat consistently feature deeper cluster hammer marks, deeper pin lathe grooves, and less visible k-con style radial hammering when compared to models produced in later years. I wanted to see if other members had noticed the same things and especially figure out when those changes may have taken place.

That is what I intended the spirit of this post to be about rather than just asking about the fundamental physical qualities that make my cymbals sound different.

 

[JDA]

"maybe I'll get an ink stamp and put "Bounce" on it's top side : D @slcdrummer
(already has ink (Medium and the quote) underneath)

 

[slcdrummer]

"maybe I'll get an ink stamp and put "Bounce" on it's top side : D @slcdrummer
(already has ink (Medium and the quote) underneath)

Lol!! Yeah then if you laser on an AJ serial number we’ll be in business!

 

[JDA]

I'm waiting wondering if I'll ever own a Bosphorus with laser engraving! lol ..not yet...

oyee..

 

[maxb2k]

I have a Bounce prototype 20 “ bought new at Memphis Drum Shop’s Zildjian day, 2010. Paul Francis was very kind and gracious in helping me go through the cymbals he had on offer. Brought me to the artist’s hospitality tent where I met Peter Erskine who’s signature graces this bounce prototype. I removed the top logo ink.

Serial# is AJ 2010 749. Weight is 1884 g, It’s got the deep pin lathing which was something I always thought was remarkable, and it’s developed a nice chocolate patina.

 

[slcdrummer]

I have a Bounce prototype 20 “ bought new at Memphis Drum Shop’s Zildjian day, 2010. Paul Francis was very kind and gracious in helping me go through the cymbals he had on offer. Brought me to the artist’s hospitality tent where I met Peter Erskine who’s signature graces this bounce prototype. I removed the top logo ink.

Serial# is AJ 2010 749. Weight is 1884 g, It’s got the deep pin lathing which was something I always thought was remarkable, and it’s developed a nice chocolate patina. View attachment 527895 View attachment 527896 View attachment 527897 View attachment 527895 View attachment 527895 View attachment 527896

Oh yeah that’s beautiful! I can see the shadow of those deep hammer clusters too. I would guess there aren’t too many 20’s out there with those characteristics! Thanks for sharing Maxb2k, sounds like a really cool experience getting that cymbal too.

 

[maxb2k]

The clusters are very pronounced, you’re right. I have a 16“ Cluster crash, and the clusters are no where near how they are on the proto ride.

Indeed it was a memorable experience, thanks. i came at the tail end of thé event, but was fortunate to meet the heavies in the room . . .John Riley, Thomas Lang, and Peter Erskine! All were so friendly, and generous, taking pictures, talking. I was in town for the Blues Music Awards, and when John Riley heard this started enquiring the differences between the Chicago shuffle -v- Texas shuffle. That’s a whole different thread so I won’t go into it here, but he really impresses as the ultimate teacher. Pretty certain he knew, just wanted to hear in my own words.

 

[Phantomlimb777]

If all goes according to plan, I should be coming home with this tomorrow. I miss my Bounce Overhammered, so maybe this would be close.

 

[Phantomlimb777]

I got the cymbal, pics are in the recent cymbal purchase thread. AD serial, which makes this a late one to have the pin lathing. Also has the Armand Zildjian signature lasered on the back, which I heard was reserved for the good ones.

 

[dogmanaut]

I’ll have to pull mine out today and check the weight/serial number, but the guy I bought it from mentioned in the Reverb listing that, as far as he understood, there were two versions of the Bounce ride, an older one and a newer one, and that the one he was selling was the older one. Seems consistent with your theory:

 

[slcdrummer]

I’ll have to pull mine out today and check the weight/serial number, but the guy I bought it from mentioned in the Reverb listing that, as far as he understood, there were two versions of the Bounce ride, an older one and a newer one, and that the one he was selling was the older one. Seems consistent with your theory:

View attachment 529350 View attachment 529351

That ones got the look for sure.

 

[GiveMeYourSmallestSticks!]

So now by my count we have 4 photos of AJ bounce rides that all share the deeper pin lathing, deeper cluster hammer marks, and less pronounced symmetrical radial hammering.

—my 2361g ride,
—The one owned by my friend that I posted pics of
—The one in the old DFO ad shared by VinSparkle (2472g)
—and the one previously owned by Thomas L (2449g)

plus, two anecdotal instances of AJ Bounce rides that I have seen in the wild with the same characteristics.

two of them are on the medium-heavier end of the bounce ride weight range and still display the characteristics I’m looking for so I’m becoming more certain that the AJ rides were made differently. I don’t believe it’s just a matter of every cymbal being different or the lathing process resulting in these aesthetic differences.

I really appreciate everyone’s insights and especially those of you who have shared Bounce ride pics or experiences.

I would love to see if anyone else has more recent models and see if they share the characteristics of my 2017 cymbal
—more pronounced symmetric radial hammering
—less pronounced pin lathing and cluster hammering

The burning question for me now is AA (2011) or AB (2012) serial number 22” bounces. I feel reasonably certain that the cymbals are made differently now than they were in 2010 when they first came out. The question is when they changed.

Remembered this thread and wanted to chime in, as I just bought a used 22" Bounce ride with serial # beginning AB (2012). I don't have a scale on hand, but it definitely feels lighter than other 22s I have which are just over 2500g. My guess would be this one is around 2400g. It has 6 rivet holes drilled, just debating whether I add rivets, and exactly how many. Should be fun to experiment with.

Anyhow, the hammer marks are pronounced, as are the lathe lines. Edges are thin and wobbly. Here are a few pics: