A vintage Zildjian - with a "zillion" die stamps - one for Zenstat

zenstat

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A few quick observations. Most of the impressions seem to be Small Stamp (B type with the top of the Ottoman pressed in fully), and Large Stamp Type 3 (the one with no dots in a triangle). But given some other unusual aspects of these maybe it is a Small Stamp A but fully pressed in. Or a slightly different version? :dontknow:

polystamp-2.jpeg


That's interesting because we don't have a well established order for the Large Stamps, but here we have the Type 3 in association with the next production era of Small Stamps. However there are also some interesting things going on at the next level of details. Almost all Large Stamp 3 impressions are missing the very top of the Ottoman. But it is present on these. There are also a few details about the stamp impressions which are out of the usual range of variation. These four seem to be Small Stamps (you can see a Large Stamp impression in the upper right for scale).

polystamp-3.jpeg


Not all the individual impressions seem to have that very small gap like Trans Stamps do. For some years I've been wondering if the die is in separate parts held together in some sort of holder. If there are slight alignment differences among the parts which need to get properly this would explain things like larger than normal gaps. Or if one portion of the die could tip relative to the rest that could create the gap in the top of the Ottoman. The other open question I've had is whether or not dies wear out over time and we can use that for getting a time order. This cymbal is helpful because it has so many impressions to compare.

Another oddity is whether or not the MADE IN U.S.A. gets pressed in. Is that another example of getting the separate portions of the whole stamp all lined up properly? Or just less pressure on the bottom of the die?

polystamp-5.jpeg


This is going to keep some of us busy for a long time.

* edit * forgot to say that for hole gazers this might have the 7/16" mounting hole not the later 1/2" hole.

 
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Cliff DeArment

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Ok... my brain just exploded.... thanks.... :wacko:

Zenstat, we spoke a while back about a possible third small stamp. Maybe we just found it. I've never seen one, but perhaps others have. SSC!

Looks like we have LS3, SSB, and SSC. Is there an SSA anywhere? With SO many stamps I can't tell. Starting to think this guy had a stamp fetish. :wub: Ya think?

The only thing I know.... Every time we think we know something, we don't. Wait, maybe we do! Well.... at least we do know the world is flat! :cool:
 

rock roll

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Glad someone here got it. Well done Rock Roll. I was holding my bid back on that cymbal so as not to alert anyone....lol. And then I was preoccupied the morning it was going off and got to it about an hour too late. I'd have bid it up a bit higher than it sold for. Not too many people noticed that "sleeper" cymbal. But once you save the auction photos and blew it up all those stamps came to life. I saw double or triple stamps on the regular photos and it got my interest up.
Same here. The dark patina hid a lot of the logos.and no mention of them in the description.
I got lucky you got preoccupied , Who knows how high it could have gone.
 

Cliff DeArment

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Looked more closely through pictures above. There are two stamp types we may not have noticed...

Picture #8: The lowest right stamp is Trans III

Picture #6: Canada era, "no country of origin", as well as Canada era but stamped USA. The giveaway is W of Ottoman. See Zenstat http://black.net.nz/avedis/avedis-gallery.html#no-origin

So far, we have Trans all the way up to the 1970's! (if Canada is really from the 70's) Many stamps, such as Block, LS2, SSA, aren't there at all. There must have been several other cymbals sitting in the back for stamp work.

Good going rock roll. You have a Trans! Hammering passes the test as well. In my view, this may be among the most important cymbals in the world. Keep those pics coming!
 

Tama CW

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Good job in finding that trans stamp hidden there. That means this cymbal was kept around in the shop being stamped for at least 5-7 yrs or so. The Ebay seller certainly had no clue about the cymbal stamps. They were just selling some 1950's Estate Sale percussion instrument purchases they had run across. In the seller's bell photo at 11:30 there appears to be a small 1/2" crack on the bell area within an inch above the hole as the dark patina begins. And not the type of crack you'd expect to see up there. Maybe a casting defect instead as it almost looks "raised" with a meandering shape to it? Or from stamping the cymbal too close and too many times near the bell? Note how close the stamps come up right to the bell base.

On the under side view there are a pair of parallel creases across the bell base. I see creases on old light 8-10 inch splash cymbals but not really on a beefy 14" like this one (1188 gm). Being parallel would at least make one think they "might" have been caused at the same time by the same blow or force. The bottom edge wear on this suggests hand or hi hat cymbal use. Or could that wear have been from frequent handling and sliding around in the cymbal maker's work area? The bell hole itself and the area directly around it is essentially pristine, not typical for a cymbal that was used as a hi hat.


zildjian with a zillion stamps 7.jpg
zildjian with a zillion stamps 8.jpg
 
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zenstat

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So what we have here is a stamp testing cymbal from the 50’s ?
I think so. I've marked the T3 Cliff spotted on a rotated version of image 8 here

image8.jpeg


as far as the example in image 6 which might be a Canadian with no country of origin line like this one from the 1970s

no-origin.png


I need to do a bit more work. So far I don't see the base of T bent over or missing like it is in the Canadian 1970s version. And I need to check to see if any other trademarks have that specific form to the cross bar. I remember when I first looked there were variations but not so full on cross bar over to the right. And last, there is the alignment I've added to this example of the relationship between the N and the E. If you compare this with the alignment of N over E in the polyphylatelic cymbal it is more like the LS2 alignment.

image6.jpeg


That alignment is not what we expect in LS3 (the version without 3 dots) so it's hard to be sure what we have. This mystery stamp also doesn't have bold patterns which suggests it might be a large stamp, but a measurement of the height would determine that.
 

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Cliff DeArment

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as far as the example in image 6 which might be a Canadian with no country of origin line like this one from the 1970s

View attachment 409401

I need to do a bit more work. So far I don't see the base of T bent over or missing like it is in the Canadian 1970s version.
Had thought about the missing T thing. Your other Canada picture seems to be different, thinking the T might have just been stamped lighter. Above, the H to C are stamped in hard. Getting into very fine detail, as we should! I usually double the image sizes (or more) to get a better idea of what's going on. Is this fun or what?! :)
 
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rock roll

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Got a response but it was minimal so I explained why I wanted more info ... Here's what he added.
From an estate sale in Berlin Connecticut .. The son played as a kid... The estate sale was for his mother...he had people come and clear the house out for the sale.
 

rock roll

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Good job in finding that trans stamp hidden there. That means this cymbal was kept around in the shop being stamped for at least 5-7 yrs or so. The Ebay seller certainly had no clue about the cymbal stamps. They were just selling some 1950's Estate Sale percussion instrument purchases they had run across. In the seller's bell photo at 11:30 there appears to be a small 1/2" crack on the bell area within an inch above the hole as the dark patina begins. And not the type of crack you'd expect to see up there. Maybe a casting defect instead as it almost looks "raised" with a meandering shape to it? Or from stamping the cymbal too close and too many times near the bell? Note how close the stamps come up right to the bell base.

On the under side view there are a pair of parallel creases across the bell base. I see creases on old light 8-10 inch splash cymbals but not really on a beefy 14" like this one (1188 gm). Being parallel would at least make one think they "might" have been caused at the same time by the same blow or force. The bottom edge wear on this suggests hand or hi hat cymbal use. Or could that wear have been from frequent handling and sliding around in the cymbal maker's work area? The bell hole itself and the area directly around it is essentially pristine, not typical for a cymbal that was used as a hi hat.


View attachment 409368View attachment 409369
I'll add a better pic later today..there's a small crack that doesn't go thru Nearer to the keyhole.and the two parrallel dents.
 

rock roll

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image.jpeg

The crack does go thru...
Also I started this more extensive pic attempt..so I couldn't yet flip it over...I'll be adding these new pics soon.
image.jpeg
 

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