A vintage Zildjian - with a "zillion" die stamps - one for Zenstat

Formula 602

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JDA

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if/Any reflection/affect on 'Sound' would have much more Bearing!
otherwise it's "just" as relevant, as a metal "decal"...
if there's no "sound" component associated..
 
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zenstat

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if/Any reflection/affect on 'Sound' would have much more Bearing!
otherwise it's "just" as relevant, as a metal "decal"...
if there's no "sound" component associated..
Not quite following you Joe. Are you trying to say discussion of trademark history is of little value to you because the different trademarks aren't yet correlated with specific sonic differences?

I love this photo because it makes me think of CSI: Cymbal Stamp Investigation. :icon_e_wink:



Anybody who wants to engage in the other CSI: Cymbal Sound Investigation is most welcome. Of course you will need to know about the different trademarks in order to design and analyze the experiments to test for sonic differences in cymbals with different trademarks...
 

JDA

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19 years of cymbalholic discussion experience sharing and collaboration on the exact topic notwithstanding we'll take your light word on it gotcha
 

jptrickster

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Those pictures/cymbal are amazing! Thx for taking the time RR to photograph and indulge us stamp nerds in this fine piece of Zildjian history. Truly one of a kind. Where do you live? ;)
 

zenstat

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they have been correlated . sound chapters in A. what do you think: 1st, Trans, Hollow, then everything after that (until much well into the 90s later maybe)

is of little value to anyone if there isn't a corresponding sound. People- A people I would assume- don't collect stamps. they collect sound. Old K insignia differences each have a corresponding build and sound (like the four or so A categories) - (and surprisingly more categories than A) If sound ( and response musically) isn't foremost it's mere stamp collecting. Alone that is not important to a musician. (maybe it is to an eccentric collector") Insignia has to have a correlating sound aspect component to be even vaguely of use and practical application;

otherwise you're (moreso) studying the imprinter-the (actual) stamping-tool..itself and it's intricacies.
(which I guess in industry machine /locksmith/vintage tumbler/vintage key/ circles, holds some value)

the reason people pay for and go after specific, intermediate Ks, old stamp Ks, or A trans stamps, or A large stamps, or K new stamps, or whatever their fancy, is for the well known vastly known widely accepted-known; sound the insignia correlates to. Why else do you think an old stamp is priced and receives higher $ than a new stamp. Is not because of the style of insignia it's what that insignia means/guarantees to the sound.
Not looking for an incursive 'J' , looking beyond that..what that guarantees within that person's gathered knowledge base scope..
Reducing your rave to

o but they are and have been for quite quite sometime ..; ) carry on..
May not help your claim. Or it might. I'm not sure.

I guess a false correlation is still a correlation.
19 years of cymbalholic discussion experience sharing and collaboration on the exact topic notwithstanding we'll take your light word on it gotcha
This thread is about trademarks Joe. Rather than insulting somebody who has an opinion contrary to yours, how about starting a thread giving a review of the research on the correlation of cymbal sound and production era? My own take on the "19 years of Cymbalholic discussion" is that there were only one or two decent studies done and they present evidence which does not support your view. But again, that would be a topic for a different thread.
 

JDA

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I assumed this was a music site sorry
shoulda known better
nevermind
 
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marko52

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Would love to hear Paul Francis's take on the history of this cymbal full of stamps or Johnny D who is a member
Exactly. I find it hard to believe that no one at Zildjian ever mentioned that there were these "stamp practice" cymbals lying around; I wonder if there are Sabian ones, too............marko
 

Tama CW

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Those pictures/cymbal are amazing! Thx for taking the time RR to photograph and indulge us stamp nerds in this fine piece of Zildjian history. Truly one of a kind. Where do you live? ;)
I only presented the initial listing of this item on Ebay....though not making it easy for anyone and providing a direct link. But anyone could have gone searching for a 14" Zildjian at that time....and might have been able to bid on it. My thought was to present it here just in case it disappeared forever in the event I didn't get it. But the real credit is now with Rock Roll and Zenstat and others who are doing the real Heavy Lifting to document and analyze this baby. My input is now just a foot note.

Sure, cymbals are about sound. And that sound is determined by cymbal makers and their craft. Part of the craft was the stamping of the cymbals. And sound and cymbal appearance alone doesn't always nail down the precise mfg date of the cymbal. The stamp helps narrow it down. Just look at Istanbul K's and A's. To the unitiated, the stamps over a 50 year period basically all look the same. Of course they are not. Badges on early drums help as well. How much is a 1930's Ludwig WMP snare worth without a badge or date stamp? Answer: considerably less than if it had none of those features. The badges and stamps give cymbals and drums another level of "character." And if you could measure the sonic differences between stamped and un-stamped cymbals down to 0.000001%....I'd bet there would be a detectable difference. To those ordering new cymbals from Zildjian who are 100% into the sonic quality and nothing else......request stamp-less ones.
 
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rock roll

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How could you correlate the stamp logo to sound differences?
Other than Go to the factory get a pre stamp with their approval "for science" and record it and compare to one with a stamp.

I've always wondered about the tonal grooves and how much they affect sound since they have these polished cymbals with no grooves etc.
 

rock roll

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I assumed this was a music site sorry
shoulda known better
nevermind
I'd love to see more studies on this.
Also The differences between polished with no grooves and unfinished etc.
Sounds like a good thread to start up.
 

Tama CW

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There are huge differences with or without tonal grooves. Check out the 1980 Earth Rides for example. Any added pressure to the cymbal during manufacture compresses "some" molecules of metal, can't be avoided. Look at the back side of any 50's cymbal and you'll see the obverse stamp pushed into the back side. Compression of metal makes the cymbal "measurably" heavier in that one spot. Hence the rest of the cymbal is a different "weight" or tone vs. where the stamp is. Same for hammering marks. Our ears cannot pickup this difference of a die stamp....it's negligible. But I'm sure a sonic analyzer calibrated to the nth+1 degree could pick up the tonal differences. That was my only point. With the right sonic analyzer, you could start with a prime standard cymbal and then proceed to stamp it time and time again, evaluating the effects, if any. You could do this at home with a junk cymbal and a good recorder. How many hits with your hand die stamper "hammer" would it take to alter the sound such that your own ears detect it?

One could call the stamp mark a readable "hammering" mark. Would dozens of stamps like this cymbal have change the tonal sound that we actually hear? It just might. An 1188 gm Zildjian medium weight "A" has a pretty similar sound to others in that 1150-1225 weight range. I've heard enough of them to be convinced that weight for 14" hats in the mid 50's through the 60's is potentially 80-90% based on weight alone (bell sizes generally all the same). I find hi hats to be the most uniform of all the vintage Zildjians. It might be that all those die stamps made this cymbal play heavier as it weighed 1250 gms as well as being a tad dryer and darker. Just my thoughts. Trying to bring back my metallurgy classes from 40 yrs ago isn't easy.
 
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