A vintage Zildjian - with a "zillion" die stamps - one for Zenstat

Pounder

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Most likely as stated a factory stamp-punch cymbal. I once had a double stamp AZ.
 

Cliff DeArment

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Went more closely into 70's "no country of origin" and possible Canada era, and you are right Zenstat. It isn't. The only thing that would match is W. These show a true mystery stamp. It doesn't pass trans or Canada or anything else. Why aren't there any out there? :wacko: Why make a great stamp and never use it? Odd odd odd....
 

zenstat

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Went more closely into 70's "no country of origin" and possible Canada era, and you are right Zenstat. It isn't. The only thing that would match is W. These show a true mystery stamp. It doesn't pass trans or Canada or anything else. Why aren't there any out there? :wacko: Why make a great stamp and never use it? Odd odd odd....
My current guess is that the "mystery stamp" was made in such a way that it was to hard to get the MADE IN U.S.A. to press in properly. What we see on the test cymbal is them trying out different pressures and/or adjustments to get it to work. Maybe the MADE IN U.S.A. section was a bit low (if it is all one die) or they were fiddling with the pieces in the holder (separate dies) to get it to leave a better impression. Maybe they could never get it to work well enough, or maybe that is one of the Small Stamps we already know but it was reworked before it went into use, or maybe they are out there and we just haven't spotted one yet. We do tend to find one previously unrecognized trademark stamp per year. Like Olympic records it is hard to know how long we can keep that up. Here is the earlier work I did where I found alignment differences which led me to think there might be 5 or so of the Small Stamps (from October 2016)


I got the idea of a callibration/test piece from the Large Stamp (LS3) impression where the top is fully pressed in. This is unusual as it is poorly pressed in 99% of the time. That's what got me started on what this test cymbal might have been used for. The other interesting factoid is that there are hardly any Large Stamp cymbals which are less then 15". So much so that there is a suggestion that the Large Stamp was too big to apply to small diameter cymbals so hats from the 1954-1957 period would be more likely to have a Trans Stamp as one or more dies were kept for use on hats. These theories are not yet able to be tested. I can see trying to test it if we had a complete handle on how to distinguish Trans Stamp hammering and lathing from Large Stamp hammering and lathing at say 95% accuracy (or greater). But we're not there yet.

Would love to hear Paul Francis's take on the history of this cymbal full of stamps or Johnny D who is a member
Leon Chiappini and Paul Francis (and Johnny D?) all started at Zildjian after that test cymbal. It might have left the building before they arrived. However, I agree it will be enlightening to hear their comments about it.

How could you correlate the stamp logo to sound differences?
Other than Go to the factory get a pre stamp with their approval "for science" and record it and compare to one with a stamp.
We've gone down the rabbit hole as regards what I mean by correlation of sound and stamp. That somehow morphed into "the sonic effect of having or not having stamp". I wouldn't expect one to be able to pick up any sonic difference of not having the stamp. There is just too much variation between cymbals to expect to hear a stamp or a single rivet hole (if it doesn't have a rivet in it) and have that difference systematically repeated across a representative sample of cymbals. The only exception might be when the cymbal was a second and seconds were pulled out of the normal stream at the final step and left untrademarked because they sounded too far away from the standard.

What I'm talking about is the study of whether or not there are systematic detectable differences in sound between different production eras. Different people have quite different beliefs about their ability to reliably tell a 50s from a 70s A Zildjian or an old K from an old A. Then there is how well they actually do when listening without knowing the production era or brand. The previous research on that along with suggestions for the experimental design for future research is what belongs in a separate thread.

There are huge differences with or without tonal grooves. Check out the 1980 Earth Rides for example.
Earth Rides are very heavy and pressed into shape with no hammering and lathing. That combination of attributes sets them apart from most cymbals. The likely sonic effect will be much bigger than the more subtle effect of large vs small tonal grooves and wearing down the grooves by polishing to brilliant finish. But again this is better off in another thread. I've collected up what a few different professional cymbal makers have to say about the effects of tonal grooves, but they don't all agree and we haven't got to the bottom of that particular groove yet. :icon_e_wink:
 
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zenstat

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I came across this one in my files while doing a reorganization. A pair of 15" hats. One cymbal was stamped on the bottom not the top. You can see the pressing deformation oval and ghost image of the stamp on the top. If that isn't rare enough, this is also a mid 50s Large Stamp L1 (aka block stamp). These are quite rare on smaller cymbals...as in I know of about 4-5 pairs of 14" hats with a Large Stamp and one other pair of 15" hats in addition to this oddity. No splashes to be seen although they certainly exist from earlier and later in the timeline.


stamp-on-bot-topview 2.jpg


stamp-on-bot 2.jpg


stamp-on-bot.png



After that the size distribution goes

16" 2
17" 7
18" 28
19" 7
20" 49
21" 18
22" 134
23" 5
24" 28
26" 12
28" 1

based on my data as at today. Here is an older analysis (lower numbers) which shows what I mention below in terms of relative excesses and deficits.

Large-Stamp-Counts.png


This distribution shows the usual pattern of fewer odd diameters (17,19,21,23) compared to even (18,20,22,24). But the larger number of 22" compared to 20" is different from some other eras. There is a discussion about that in another thread but in a more recent context (post 2000). There is a relative excess of 22" and larger sizes. Big diameters were popular in the mid 1950s. Fashions change. :dontknow:

 

jptrickster

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Interesting that only a handfull of Hat sizes were large stamped possibly indicating it could have been problematic. What stamp did they use otherwise on small diameters during this large stamp era?
 

JDA

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I think this thread frustrates JDA because it's now impossible to know how the cymbal sounds sincet thereare different stamps on it.
Stamp era with characteristic sound changes in A's document that then it'd have relevance. Irrelevant without, So inconsistent stamps accompanied with and to inconsistent sounds is a meaningless effortless wash. Unless to Pawn dealers or stamp collectors. They've a right to exist but it's not a musical one. Still there's no correlation. (Well there is, but it's never discussed) Mainly because A's were "all over the map" inconsistent just in a very general way for so very long..probably Norwell up into the 80s. Maybe longer. There were A sound era's previous, 30s to 50s, related to stamp, but thru the 60s to 90s GLW that.. A's were less consistent than old ks which were more handmade. That's why, barring those 30s to 50s A's, old K stamps had a sound correlation relevance throughout their entire tenure. To apply the same interest to A stamps ....ends... after hmm the mid late 50s.
In other words stamp id had a meaning when it started with Ks. (and that's where it started. With Ks) When the same ID technique and techniques were transferred to A it lost a whole boatload of meaning. Just sayin. That's how it went. K's were first investigated then when it (stamp id) got transferred over to A's it entirely lost the sound correlation factorage. Because there was none (or very little) (30s to 50s- yes) 60s A's were a slapdash mess as evidenced by the juvenile interest (that's all it is) in the cymbal above. Has no sound bearing. Has no to little monetary bearing. Except maybe to a random, very lonely, watch collector. Maybe you could bluff the guy behind the counter, on the Pawn Stars TV show with it, that it's extremely (not sound) errr..something.
 
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Markkuliini

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Stamp era with characteristic sound changes in A's document that then it'd have relevance. Irrelevant without, So inconsistent stamps accompanied with and to inconsistent sounds is a meaningless effortless wash. Unless to Pawn dealers or stamp collectors. They've a right to exist but it's not a musical one. Still there's no correlation. (Well there is, but it's never discussed) Mainly because A's were "all over the map" inconsistent just in a very general way for so very long..probably Norwell up into the 80s. Maybe longer. There were A sound era's previous, 30s to 50s, related to stamp, but thru the 60s to 90s GLW that.. A's were less consistent than old ks which were more handmade. That's why, barring those 30s to 50s A's, old K stamps had a sound correlation relevance throughout their entire tenure. To apply the same interest to A stamps ....ends... after hmm the mid late 50s.
In other words stamp id had a meaning when it started with Ks. (and that's where it started. With Ks) When the same ID technique and techniques were transferred to A it lost a whole boatload of meaning. Just sayin. That's how it went. K's were first investigated then when it (stamp id) got transferred over to A's it entirely lost the sound correlation factorage. Because there was none (or very little) (30s to 50s- yes) 60s A's were a slapdash mess as evidenced by the juvenile interest (that's all it is) in the cymbal above. Has no sound bearing. Has no to little monetary bearing. Except maybe to a random, very lonely, watch collector. Maybe you could bluff the guy behind the counter, on the Pawn Stars TV show with it, that it's extremely (not sound) errr..something.
Q.E.D.
 

Tama CW

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..........Because there was none (or very little) (30s to 50s- yes) 60s A's were a slapdash mess as evidenced by the juvenile interest (that's all it is) in the cymbal above. Has no sound bearing. Has no to little monetary bearing. Except maybe to a random, very lonely, watch collector. Maybe you could bluff the guy behind the counter, on the Pawn Stars TV show with it, that it's extremely (not sound) errr..something.
It's irrelevant if the 60's were a "slapdash" mess. You missed the major point about this cymbal. It's not a 60's or later. It's a 50's....probably early to mid 50's....when many versions of Zildjian stamps were overlapping in time. How could anyone participating in this thread not realize this was not a 60's or later cymbal? It looks like a 50's cymbal as well.

Monetary bearing? I'd bet it is considerable. Without knowing much about this cymbal other than I've never seen or heard of one like it before, I was willing to pay $125 on Ebay even with the 1" bell crack. Figure that was 2X to 3X the going rate for a cracked cymbal. I submit if placed up to a wide audience of Zildjian "watch collectors" on Reverb and/or Ebay....this could realize anywhere in the $200-$500 range. If it's unique, what's that worth? You can buy all the Istanbul K Zildjians you want tomorrow and you'll run out of money doing it. But you cannot buy this cymbal or one like it for any amount of money....at the moment. Consider it unique for now....others like it probably all melted. I'd say there's very considerable monetary value here for something potentially unique. Never underestimate the ability of deep-pocket collectors when it comes to obtaining something neat and unique and previously not known to exist. There are some serious watches out there worth over a $MILLION each. Paul Newman's Rolex Daytona pocket watch, sold for $17,750,000 in New York in 2017. I wonder what lonely watch collector or dealer bought it?

It's more than just the "sound" when it comes to a collectible instrument's value....far, far more. And this cymbal is now much more a true and historical collectible than it ever was an instrument. Now that we have all that cleared up..........Carry On.
 
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JDA

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t's more than just the "sound" when it comes to a collectible instrument's value.
And that's of no interest to a musician so who would buy it. What do/would a collector do with them/it. Put it on the fireplace shelf or in a glass case. Ask Francis it's value. And it's fracking cracked (?! Jeezus Man. lol enjoy that bugger! It got a thread on Dfo guess that's worth a Nickle.
 

JDA

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It's more than just the "sound" when it comes to a collectible instrument's value.
Yeah that's where you guys lose me..
may as well be a baseball card or actual paper (lickable) Stamp..
I don't think I've ever heard of a Cymbal collector and Drum Collectors...well they have events a few times a year still don't altho there may be, know of, a Drum Museum somewhere (Gene Krupa display at the guggenheim) Top shelf at Bennetts umm.. stumped.
I guess it fits in with the category of Purple Diamond pearl Rogers. Cosmetics. pure cosmetics maybe Revlons interested (it's cracked??!! o geezus.
there's no /known of/ cymbal collectors.
Ha! I'd like to see/hear of/ that fella.
regarding the year of that cymbal Zen can confirm Francis had has knowledge of a drawer full of old stamp tools. It's either Quincy or Norwell. That's about all the most one can say about Avedis; and the original 20s 30s garage that burned (can't recall that address)

lemme see it again. It's cracked? didn't know that
 
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Tama CW

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That's why you are not a collector. I've been one since 1962 - covering many different areas of collectibles. What would anyone do with a first print Mark Twain? Or Judy Garland's red ruby slippers from Wizard of Oz.....or Newman's Rolex watch mentioned earlier. After all, the only thing you can do with the Twain novel is read it....and some of us did just that back in grade school. But, can do that at the Public Library for free. Judy's slippers are only good for wearing ($30). Newman's watch is only good for telling time ($3 with a cheap LED watch).

Spend some time talking with Rick Harrison at Pawn Stars or Jim Halperin at Heritage Galleries Dallas, TX....they both can give you some thoughts on "collectibles," and why 2 seemingly "identical" collectibles can have a 10x, 100X, or even 1,000X difference in value. Halperin left Harvard his sophomore year to open up a coin shop and then went on to form a major rare coin firm from 1973-1982. In 1983 he co-founded Heritage Galleries which today is one of the largest collectibles and auction houses in the world, for all types of collectibles.

Francis may or may not be a player in valuing such a cymbal, especially if either he or Zildjian have no "collectible" gene running through them. The ones that would determine the value are collectors who wish to "own" it. That's all there is to it. Yeah, they go on the shelf or in a case, or in a safe deposit box. Query stamp, coin, art, antique, comic book, toy, rug, gun, car, sports memorabilia, super bowl rings, Olympic gold medals, and other such collectors. Ask them "why" they do it. There are some very good reasons, one of them financial and monetary. Why do some drummers have hundreds of collectible snare drums? They can only play one at a time. It goes WAY beyond just the instrument itself....well into the psychology of collecting...which has been with modern man for millenia. If one only addresses the instrument and it's sound....then something like a Stradavarius comes up way short of proving its market value.
 
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bongomania

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Some people like to learn and inquire throughout their lives, and some people just like to s**t on anything that they didn’t learn a long time ago.

For a bonus sometimes they’ll add the extra layer of crapping on anyone else who wants to learn new things, and moving the goalposts every time we show them their own ignorance.
 

JDA

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Learn what . That a press machine can pound on a cymbal multiple times. (wait are those hand hammered stamps?) Ok. Now what. How where are we further along. maybe Zildjian would have interest in it Ask Francis or bennett. Recommend polishing it as I mentioned in post#2 ...if it's going to be on display. It has novelty value. (musical if you play it) Know where novelty store prices begin
 
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Markkuliini

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Yeah that's where you guys lose me..
may as well be a baseball card or actual paper (lickable) Stamp..
I don't think I've ever heard of a Cymbal collector and Drum Collectors...well they have events a few times a year still don't altho there may be, know of, a Drum Museum somewhere (Gene Krupa display at the guggenheim) Top shelf at Bennetts umm.. stumped.
I guess it fits in with the category of Purple Diamond pearl Rogers. Cosmetics. pure cosmetics maybe Revlons interested (it's cracked??!! o geezus.
there's no /known of/ cymbal collectors.
Ha! I'd like to see/hear of/ that fella.
regarding the year of that cymbal Zen can confirm Francis had has knowledge of a drawer full of old stamp tools. It's either Quincy or Norwell. That's about all the most one can say about Avedis; and the original 20s 30s garage that burned (can't recall that address)

lemme see it again. It's cracked? didn't know that
No need to be hysterical. Simmer down, plz.
 

JDA

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I am incapable of hysterical. Quit quoting me - I believe you restarted by quoting an 11 day old, who's hysterical?. old post (Post #66) - and ringing my bell. and you may have a deal. I will send an invoice for my time
 
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Markkuliini

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I am incapable of hysterical. Quit quoting me - I believe you restarted by quoting an 11 day old, who's hysterical?. old post (Post #66) - and ringing my bell. and you may have a deal. I will send an invoice for my time
Please, you need to calm down. No need to be upset or triggered.

Edit: And I peg you, don't send me an invoice. I don't think I could afford to pay it. Plz, no invoice. Let me have the wisdom and secrets of cymbals for free.
 
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JDA

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I'm not upset You keep quoting me and I ain't charging you should be happy
 

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