A vintage Zildjian - with a "zillion" die stamps - one for Zenstat

Cliff DeArment

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Went more closely into 70's "no country of origin" and possible Canada era, and you are right Zenstat. It isn't. The only thing that would match is W. These show a true mystery stamp. It doesn't pass trans or Canada or anything else. Why aren't there any out there? :wacko: Why make a great stamp and never use it? Odd odd odd....
 

zenstat

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Went more closely into 70's "no country of origin" and possible Canada era, and you are right Zenstat. It isn't. The only thing that would match is W. These show a true mystery stamp. It doesn't pass trans or Canada or anything else. Why aren't there any out there? :wacko: Why make a great stamp and never use it? Odd odd odd....
My current guess is that the "mystery stamp" was made in such a way that it was to hard to get the MADE IN U.S.A. to press in properly. What we see on the test cymbal is them trying out different pressures and/or adjustments to get it to work. Maybe the MADE IN U.S.A. section was a bit low (if it is all one die) or they were fiddling with the pieces in the holder (separate dies) to get it to leave a better impression. Maybe they could never get it to work well enough, or maybe that is one of the Small Stamps we already know but it was reworked before it went into use, or maybe they are out there and we just haven't spotted one yet. We do tend to find one previously unrecognized trademark stamp per year. Like Olympic records it is hard to know how long we can keep that up. Here is the earlier work I did where I found alignment differences which led me to think there might be 5 or so of the Small Stamps (from October 2016)


I got the idea of a callibration/test piece from the Large Stamp (LS3) impression where the top is fully pressed in. This is unusual as it is poorly pressed in 99% of the time. That's what got me started on what this test cymbal might have been used for. The other interesting factoid is that there are hardly any Large Stamp cymbals which are less then 15". So much so that there is a suggestion that the Large Stamp was too big to apply to small diameter cymbals so hats from the 1954-1957 period would be more likely to have a Trans Stamp as one or more dies were kept for use on hats. These theories are not yet able to be tested. I can see trying to test it if we had a complete handle on how to distinguish Trans Stamp hammering and lathing from Large Stamp hammering and lathing at say 95% accuracy (or greater). But we're not there yet.

Would love to hear Paul Francis's take on the history of this cymbal full of stamps or Johnny D who is a member
Leon Chiappini and Paul Francis (and Johnny D?) all started at Zildjian after that test cymbal. It might have left the building before they arrived. However, I agree it will be enlightening to hear their comments about it.

How could you correlate the stamp logo to sound differences?
Other than Go to the factory get a pre stamp with their approval "for science" and record it and compare to one with a stamp.
We've gone down the rabbit hole as regards what I mean by correlation of sound and stamp. That somehow morphed into "the sonic effect of having or not having stamp". I wouldn't expect one to be able to pick up any sonic difference unless not having the stamp. There is just too much variation between cymbals to expect to hear a stamp or a single rivet hole (if it doesn't have a rivet in it) and have that difference systematically repeated across a representative sample of cymbals. The only exception might be when the cymbal was a second and seconds were pulled out of the normal stream at the final step and left untrademarked because they sounded too far away from the standard.

What I'm talking about is the study of whether or not there are systematic detectable differences in sound between different production eras. Different people have quite different beliefs about their ability to reliably tell a 50s from a 70s A Zildjian or an old K from an old A. Then there is how well they actually do when listening without knowing the production era or brand. The previous research on that along with suggestions for the experimental design for future research is what belongs in a separate thread.

There are huge differences with or without tonal grooves. Check out the 1980 Earth Rides for example.
Earth Rides are very heavy and pressed into shape with no hammering and lathing. That combination of attributes sets them apart from most cymbals. The likely sonic effect will be much bigger than the more subtle effect of large vs small tonal grooves and wearing down the grooves by polishing to brilliant finish. But again this is better off in another thread. I've collected up what a few different professional cymbal makers have to say about the effects of tonal grooves, but they don't all agree and we haven't got to the bottom of that particular groove yet. :icon_e_wink:
 
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