hardbat
DFO Veteran
I just love the 602 flats... I've got three of them and use them all the time. But that's about it for me and Paiste.
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Am i the only one who has never had any luck with Paiste?
- Thread starter unicorncop
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Nope. You aren’t the only one. Heard Paiste in a band setting- recorded. Sounds ok. Live? Not to my ears. You csn beat and hsmmer B8 all you want. But you CANNOT make it sound like B20. Even Paiste had to make some B20 cymbals. And, yes, They sound better. Just MY ears.
I have a set of Istanbul that I really enjoy. And a 22” ride I can’t recall the name/ concentric black circles on it. Sounds good. I havent found many Sabians that match what I play except HIHsts.
Well, maybe because B8 isn‘t supposed to sound like B20 and vice versa?
I mean, why would you buy Paiste and expect them to sound like Istanbuls?
And finally, what does Paiste sound like? 2002, Masters, 602, Sig DE, Rude?
trashman
Well-Known Member
I've tried, diligently, several times over the decades to get into Paiste cymbals. I've had full sets of 602s, Signatures, Dark Energies (twice), and Sound Creations (three times).
Sound Creation Dark Medium Hi-hats are a longstanding constant for me, and I wouldn't ever want to be without them. With all other models I've had, and the role that I wanted them for, I just always felt that they were bettered by some other make, for my liking.
I think Paiste cymbals can sound absolutely fantastic when others play them, but apart from my SC Dark Medium Hats, I've never settled on anything that was a keeper.
Still, I love that they're out there as an option.
Sound Creation Dark Medium Hi-hats are a longstanding constant for me, and I wouldn't ever want to be without them. With all other models I've had, and the role that I wanted them for, I just always felt that they were bettered by some other make, for my liking.
I think Paiste cymbals can sound absolutely fantastic when others play them, but apart from my SC Dark Medium Hats, I've never settled on anything that was a keeper.
Still, I love that they're out there as an option.
JimmyM
DFO Veteran
I like the Paistes that sound good and don’t like the ones that don’t.
Reasonable. But Paiste touted ther hammering process as making B8 sound as good as B20.
You‘re assuming that B20 sounds better than B8. I think it‘s not the alloy, but what you do with it and what you want to do with it.
For me, neither is „better“, they‘re just different.
But I can understand that B8 might not have the best reputation, as I haven‘t heard any decent sounding B8‘s other than Paiste
AtlantaDrumGuy
DFO Master
It means that your ears are geared towards the Zildjian sound. That is the sound in my head (be it vintage As, or new Ks, and of course old Ks). I don’t need anything else. It’s not that there aren’t other choices that would work, but musically, I have no need to look further. Zildjian, done. Saves me a lot of headache.
JimmyM
DFO Veteran
I thought this set of Sabian B8 hats at this local place in the house kit was pretty decent. I forget what else they have but most are ok except One is a ZBT crash. Blech!You‘re assuming that B20 sounds better than B8. I think it‘s not the alloy, but what you do with it and what you want to do with it.
For me, neither is „better“, they‘re just different.
But I can understand that B8 might not have the best reputation, as I haven‘t heard any decent sounding B8‘s other than Paiste
considering that MOST B8 cymbals are priced WAAY below B20.. and Paiste is the only one that seem to think you can hammer B8 into sounding as good as B20-- well- that's a matter of advertising and taste. B8=cheap except for Paiste- there, you pay B20 prices for B8 hammered to death. As posted above by a drummer who used Paiste for 30 years- and finally played B20- they just don't sound the same- AND they are not supposed to sound the same- I gripe with paiste- is 1- sound= sucks. 2- priced like B20 3- overhyped as better than B20. In reality- they are not a MUSICAL as B20. I never said or hinted that I expected Istanbul or Zildjian (who has a cheap like and a B8 line) should sound the same.. Be a Paiste FanBoy if that suits you. The OP asked a question. I gave my answer. Really don't have a need to justify it to you or anyone else- I do that with my $$ and not buying overpriced Paiste junk.
I like bright, explosive crashes, clearly defined, bright ping for my ride, and the sound of 2002 15" sound edge hats works perfect for almost anything, IMO. So I've always taken to Paiste 2002 (all) , Alpha metal (all), RUDE (crashes) and Signature (crashes, splashes). To each their own. The reasons famous artists, fans, etc, like them are well documented and if anyone doesn't enjoy those sounds, there's really no reason to get into them at all. Options abound.
The Sabians are not bad cymbals by all means, as are Alphas for example. Speaking of 2002, Giant Beats, Rudes, this is definitly a level not matched by any other company for B8 and a very unique sound. Same with their Signature alloy.
For B20 I have to admit, I prefer turkish cymbal smiths. Different tools for different tasks. But would absolutly not mind waking up tomorrow with a set of Masters on my kit (or K Constantinoples or Byzances or …).
I like both the same for their very own qualities.
I'm not sure where you're getting "overhyped as better than B20." from? I've never seen Paiste make that statement.
Here's some relevant info and facts regarding how Paiste's sound and their B8 in general:
Paiste's traditionally are brighter than "Turkish based" cymbals, that goes back to the development of the 602 in the late 50's, It has everything to do with how the B20 alloy is made and differs substantially from the "Turkish way" of production.
Ludwig capitalized on this in the mid 60's ('65-'67) in their advertising (bright new sound):
Robert Paiste had started to experiment with B8 alloy as early as 1963, he was looking for a replacement for the then currently used NS12 (Nickel silver) alloy, it was a widely available industrial alloy that you can still buy today. Robert was working with their original B20 supplier on producing B8 "Metallwerke Dornach AG". He modified that production process to optimize the sound characteristics, from this came the 1st. B8 cymbal, the "Stambul 65".
Very soon after that (1967), Robert and Pierre Favre started working on a cymbal that would be compatible with the new "beat music" as they called it in Europe or what we call it, Rock & roll! That is the infamous Giant beat:
The following description was posted in the Paiste 1969 catalog: "Continuing their search for new cymbal sounds and tone colors, the Paiste Development have now turned their attention to the problems and requirements of Beat Group and Big Band drummers. As the result of extensive consultations between Paiste Technicians and top line drummers in these fields of music, Giant Beat cymbals were evolved.
The obvious problem of the Beat or Big Band drummer is competing with the sound of the amplifiers or a large number of musicians around him - GIANT BEAT CYMBALS provide the answer!
The production of GIANT BEAT is considerably different to the technique normally employed. Each GIANT BEAT cymbal is passed through a unique hardening process to insure it will stand up to the rigors of continuous heavy playing - this process combined with the way in which the cymbals are shaped, hammered and anodized, finally produces a set of cymbals with a sound capable of cutting through the loudest of Groups or Big Band sections."
Of course as everybody knows, the 2002 soon followed and changed the sound of rock music in the 70's and 80's.
From the start, Paiste's B8 cymbals were never intended to compete with their B20 cymbals, they filled a niche for loud amplified music that had not been addressed before and still do to this day!
Regarding darker sounding cymbals:
The Sound creation line was the 1st. to address the darker sound of traditional Zildjian K's, in an as yet unpublished interview I've done with Fredy Studer, he was the impetus behind the inception and development of this line:
Sound creations were such a departure from Paiste’s bright clean sound, Zildjian would take almost another decade after they bought the rights of the Zildjian “K” from Gretsch and start producing them, why was the Sound creation series so far ahead of its time?
"I told Robert since the first half of the seventies that Paiste needs a darker sound which would hopefully turn on Jazz drummers. So far they were not attracted to Paiste because the sound was too bright and too clean for them. To be honest, I came up with the idea for the 22" Dark ride because I wanted to have a cymbal like that for myself!
I bought many different records for Robert and the two of us were spending nights (including beer and good red wine) listening to many Jazz players and their cymbal sound (like Tony Williams, Steve Gadd, Al Foster, who became a Paiste endorser later on, Elvin Jones and many more). This helped Robert to understand what sound I was talking about."
Paiste continues that trend with the Twenty and now Masters series which Fredy was also involved in the development, the paradigm shift in sound comes from Paiste using a Turkish supplier for their B20 alloy, the differences in production compared to Paiste's German supplier (Weilandworks) makes all the difference in the world to the sound quality!
JDA
DFO Star
They downplayed it... a "little bit".... I'll show you where.
(in 1994 NA retail price list (there were two (i have) this one had a Cymbal Alloys section (the identical other one doesn't)
"They downplayed B20 juuuuuuust a little bit.. of a "knock".
I don't believe you have this piece of Paiste literature)
" it still produces a "certain sound".. "still good for some musical styles today...(oh Really? jda).. "but for others it doesn't work so well "... huh? shocking said the one Master Dark Ride to the Other..in 2022.. : )
JDA
DFO Star
let me clarify
there's the January 1 1994 NA Price List and the January 1 1995 NA price list.
Only the 1994 has the "Paiste Cymbal Alloys" section...
You know B20 ... "It's been used for many thousand of years" ...
there's the January 1 1994 NA Price List and the January 1 1995 NA price list.
Only the 1994 has the "Paiste Cymbal Alloys" section...
You know B20 ... "It's been used for many thousand of years" ...
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JDA
DFO Star
There's a least three knocks in there.. if read a certain way
there wasn't much or was dwindling enthusiasm for B20 at Paiste in 1994 let's put it that way
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JDA
DFO Star
Boy they Changed that TUNE didn't they LOLOL
IT Doesn't even say WE MAY OFFER it again in the Future does it..
There's no "We May Turn this Car around sometime Later" LOLOLOL
IT Doesn't even say WE MAY OFFER it again in the Future does it..
There's no "We May Turn this Car around sometime Later" LOLOLOL
JDA
DFO Star
BUSTED
They were trying to get out of B20 didn't Pan (no pun) out.
They were trying to get out of B20 didn't Pan (no pun) out.
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drummingbulldog
Very well Known Member
I started playing in 82' on my brother's mij stencil kit. It had 14" 70's Avedis new beat hats and an 18" crash ride same vintage. The other cymbals on that kit were junk. My ears learned all of my first records on those cymbals. It was a standard sounding set of hats but the crash ride was brilliant and splashy with a great bell. So, that became my first reference for what l liked. Now, 40 years later l still want an 18" crash that shimmers. I have a 90s era K custom Dark 18" that does exactly that. It should be noted that despite my origin all of that changed when l heard Tony Williams and Elvin Jones. Steve Smith on Escape and Frontiers also. Gadd on the mid 70s stuff and the Disco hits popular during my childhood. Tom Petty.
Fast forward to 2022 and now l play a mix of Zildjian K/K custom darks, Sabian HH/AAX/HHX, Istanbul Radiant. I mix and match sticks too. I play different than l did 40 years ago but my taste in a quality sound has become broader and more refined. I love some Paiste. Just never could afford them.
Fast forward to 2022 and now l play a mix of Zildjian K/K custom darks, Sabian HH/AAX/HHX, Istanbul Radiant. I mix and match sticks too. I play different than l did 40 years ago but my taste in a quality sound has become broader and more refined. I love some Paiste. Just never could afford them.
JDA
DFO Star
I thought you knew about Paiste
The intention to bring B20 Back was the markets intention NOT THEIRS. I'll wager they would have been FINE never reissuing the 602 Never delving into MaSTERS.
But Market told them.. ahem, Where to go.
I'm as Clear as a $5 bill.
lololol
And I'm having a Little Fun (with their own words)
I hope you can GET that.
They were in 1994 HOPING B20 belonged in and to the past.
Their Fingers were so crossed they nearly broke lolololol
IMAGINE PAISTE today without the reissue 602, the ME, and the Masters.
Would they still be in business.
But they were optimistic in 1994.
that B20 text disappeared in 1995.
and what year did Paiste B20 return?.
B8 - Signature Alloy...
The intention to bring B20 Back was the markets intention NOT THEIRS. I'll wager they would have been FINE never reissuing the 602 Never delving into MaSTERS.
But Market told them.. ahem, Where to go.
I'm as Clear as a $5 bill.
lololol
And I'm having a Little Fun (with their own words)
I hope you can GET that.
They were in 1994 HOPING B20 belonged in and to the past.
Their Fingers were so crossed they nearly broke lolololol
IMAGINE PAISTE today without the reissue 602, the ME, and the Masters.
Would they still be in business.
But they were optimistic in 1994.
that B20 text disappeared in 1995.
and what year did Paiste B20 return?.
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JDA
DFO Star
I don't love or hate any Company.
I'll take my speculation. I know how companies work.
Hate? I've spent thousands of dollars on Paiste cymbals new and used.
What Year did Paiste B20 Return.
I'll take my speculation. I know how companies work.
Hate? I've spent thousands of dollars on Paiste cymbals new and used.
What Year did Paiste B20 Return.
JDA
DFO Star
1994 Paiste NA pricelist brochure
I have the 1995 also. If you need them for your library.
Very intensive Sound Descriptions of every model offered those years.
JDA
DFO Star
"It (B20) produces a certain sound that is still good for some musical styles today"
like to ask whomever wrote that
"but for others it doesn't work so well"
which part of music past present and even future that person is referring to.
Maybe that person (ask who wrote that) could explain a way out of that one) over a cup of coffee.
(that's not being hateful . Thread title is silly cymbals don't bring "luck" )
like to ask whomever wrote that
"but for others it doesn't work so well"
which part of music past present and even future that person is referring to.
Maybe that person (ask who wrote that) could explain a way out of that one) over a cup of coffee.
(that's not being hateful . Thread title is silly cymbals don't bring "luck" )
