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Another Zildjian Stamp Thread_Please Help ID - 50's or 70's

Black Label

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Hi there - please could someone assist me with this ID. It is probably the faintest stamp that I have ever come across.

I recently purchased a 22" A ride weighing in around the 3100g mark.

I originally thought that it was a 70's stamp (can't do the vertical alignment of the H over E because the Made in USA portion of the stamp is too faint.

However having had another look Zenstat's website, it seems as if the D in AVEDIS does not align with the second dot but aligns somewhere in the middle of the two dots. My understanding is that that points towards a 50's and not a 70's cymbal.

The shape of the cymbal is also quite similar to a 50's 20" which I have in that it is quite "umbrella" -ish in that there is quite a prominent bow and despite the weight, the edge is actually quite thin and exciteable (sp??) and the quite thick towards the bell. The taper is quite noticeable.

Your input would be greatly appreciated.
 

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lossforgain

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My first impression (see what I did there?) is 70s. The lines are thinner than what I’m used to seeing on a 50s stamp, but I’m willing to be wrong. Any chance of a bigger/clearer picture?
 

Black Label

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Thanks so much for your input. The stamp is really faint. That is probably as good as it will get without getting blurry. the "...de in USA" is not visible at all.
My first impression (see what I did there?) is 70s. The lines are thinner than what I’m used to seeing on a 50s stamp, but I’m willing to be wrong. Any chance of a bigger/clearer picture?
 

Tama CW

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I'd say the cymbal is a 70's. But my gut feel says a "Made In Canada" example. Though most of the ones I see tend to have a strongly impressed "Canada."

I think you can faintly make out the "M" in "Made" and it's way out to the left....which occurs on the MIC examples. And the "Turkish Cymbals" line looks pretty tight to the "ZILDJIAN" line above it.
While it has the weak look of a 70's USA "thin" stamp, the placement of the "M" seems a bit too far to the left for that one.

The MIC stamp does somewhat resemble the features of a trans/50's small stamp......but some other features also give it away as something from the 70's.
 
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Black Label

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I'd say the cymbal is a 70's. But my gut feel says a "Made In Canada" example. Though most of the ones I see tend to have a strongly impressed "Canada."

I think you can faintly make out the "M" in "Made" and it's way out to the left....which occurs on the MIC examples. And the "Turkish Cymbals" line looks pretty tight to the line above it.
While it has the weak look of a 70's USA "thin" stamp, the placement of the "M" seems a bit too far to the left for that one.

The MIC stamp does somewhat resemble the features of a hybrid trans/50's small stamp......but some other features give it away as something from the 70's.
Thank you Sir - I did notice that the M of Made is very much moved to the left - I must admit that I never knew that a Made in Canada stamp even existed for A's. But considering the extra space which may be needed for the text, that could explain the placement of the M.

Please could you enlighten the unenlightened about the Made in Canada A's. Thanks!
 

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Black Label

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I just had a look at Zen's site re the Canadian stamp A's and I think the mystery is solved thanks to Tama CW. I think that cymbal is indeed a Made in Canada A. Thanks for the input!
 

Tama CW

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Zenstat discusses the MIC A's in his Avedis Gallery. Linked below. Interesting how here we have a MIC stamp with the "Canada" obliterated. Sort of kicking it back to a no country of
origin (MIC) stamp. At least here we had some of that MIC line visible to act as a clue. On the "no country of origin" MIC stamp you don't have that luxury.

https://black.net.nz/avedis/avedis-gallery.html

And your initial catch that the D in "AVEDIS" was more centered under the 2 dots is another feature of the MIC stamp since it does somewhat copy the placement of a 50's stamp.
So that feature alone rules out a 70's "thin" stamp.

I don't know why or how the MIC stamp was constructed. There are features of Zildjian 50's stamps in it. It could be they wanted to choose a stamp design that was clearly no longer being used
and could not be confused with current Zildjian 60's or 70's stamps. Though in that process, they left behind for us a stamp that at first glance looks a lot like a 50's trans stamp. I don't know how many times my eyes have lit up when seeing a photograph of a MIC cymbal with that "Turkish Cymbals" line jammed up high.....like a trans stamp. And then be let down realizing after a closer look....it's just a 70's MIC 'clone.'
 

zenstat

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Nice sleuthing while I was sleeping guys. For readers following along at home here is the direct link


The made in Canada cymbals are more prevalent in Commonwealth countries. At the time there was an import duty advantage to Canadian made cymbals. I've got two Canadian As, and based on them plus many other images I've got a pretty good idea that there are some hammering and lathing distinctions between the Canadian plant and the USA plant. My 21" also has a Large Cup on it which wasn't supposed to be in use except on the Rock 21. But I know that it was in use in Canada, and that use of the Large Cup on 21" Medium Ride cymbals survived into the Sabian era. The Canadians were doing things a bit differently. Part of the difference was from 1968 when Robert Zidljian and Dick Dane began development of hydraulic pressing into shape rather then bumping into preliminary shape using the Quincy Drop Hammer. Interestingly, Robert also claims credit for developing the Quincy Drop Hammer in 1955. This info is sourced to Chip Stern, "Inside Sabian", Modern Drummer, November 1983: vol 7 number 11.

It took some years for hydraulic pressing to be developed and applied to larger diameter and thicker cymbals, and for the technology to transfer to the USA. When you see claims that the 60tall stamp came in at 1968 and so did hydraulic pressing into shape (thus no more bottom hammering) you have come upon opinions which are way out of date with the current evidence.

All of which is to say, could we see photos of the whole cymbal from top side and bottom side, plus a photo of the bell full frame from the top, and also from the side? I'd expect the bell to be the Special Cup (aka Medium Large) or maybe the Large Cup. We really have moved on from philately to considering whole cymbals. Not that I've documented every trademark stamp there ever was. We may still meet some new ones. Same with bells as we seem to still be in discovery mode.

The Large Cup is a full 6" in diameter and 1" tall. The Special Cup (aka Medium Large) is a bit over 5 5/8" in diameter and 7/8" Tall.

zildjian-bells.png
 

Tama CW

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Speaking of Canadian Zildjians. I have this one on its way to me. 22" Canadian K - Medium Heavy Ride
I dug around Zenstat's North American K article and every cymbal blog discussing them. The topic is not
often discussed in any detail. They aren't all that well known, get lost among the Sabian HH and Zildjian EAK models, and don't have nearly the cult following
of Old or New K's. I just hope it sounds good....dark, dry, complex, and hopefully with some whispy dragon's breath. It has a lot of hammering on the top side.....but
it's more like the Sabian HH's. So that's one clue that it might sound a lot more like an HH than anything else. Some of these have an old K Istanbul New Stamp look.
And some of those do sound a bit like the old K Istanbuls. And I already know first hand that some very early EAK's sound somewhat like the old K Istanbuls.

Bell looks to be well under 5". And I've noted several other 20/22's with the same small bell It might be the standard bell for these?
There doesn't appear to be any data on the time frame of country vs. no country of origin and which were made first....or made concurrently.




zzzzzzzzz canadian K one.jpg
 
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Black Label

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Hi there
Nice sleuthing while I was sleeping guys. For readers following along at home here is the direct link


The made in Canada cymbals are more prevalent in Commonwealth countries. At the time there was an import duty advantage to Canadian made cymbals. I've got two Canadian As, and based on them plus many other images I've got a pretty good idea that there are some hammering and lathing distinctions between the Canadian plant and the USA plant. My 21" also has a Large Cup on it which wasn't supposed to be in use except on the Rock 21. But I know that it was in use in Canada, and that use of the Large Cup on 21" Medium Ride cymbals survived into the Sabian era. The Canadians were doing things a bit differently. Part of the difference was from 1968 when Robert Zidljian and Dick Dane began development of hydraulic pressing into shape rather then bumping into preliminary shape using the Quincy Drop Hammer. Interestingly, Robert also claims credit for developing the Quincy Drop Hammer in 1955. This info is sourced to Chip Stern, "Inside Sabian", Modern Drummer, November 1983: vol 7 number 11.

It took some years for hydraulic pressing to be developed and applied to larger diameter and thicker cymbals, and for the technology to transfer to the USA. When you see claims that the 60tall stamp came in at 1968 and so did hydraulic pressing into shape (thus no more bottom hammering) you have come upon opinions which are way out of date with the current evidence.

All of which is to say, could we see photos of the whole cymbal from top side and bottom side, plus a photo of the bell full frame from the top, and also from the side? I'd expect the bell to be the Special Cup (aka Medium Large) or maybe the Large Cup. We really have moved on from philately to considering whole cymbals. Not that I've documented every trademark stamp there ever was. We may still meet some new ones. Same with bells as we seem to still be in discovery mode.

The Large Cup is a full 6" in diameter and 1" tall. The Special Cup (aka Medium Large) is a bit over 5 5/8" in diameter and 7/8" Tall.

View attachment 593774
Zen - as always, thanks for the invaluable input - herewith some pics of the cymbal. The bell is 5,5 inches.
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IMG_9774.jpg
 

Black Label

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Speaking of Canadian Zildjians. I have this one on its way to me. 22" Canadian K - Medium Heavy Ride at a supposed 3238 gm.
Stamp is void of a country of origin. I dug around Zenstat's North American K article and every cymbal blog discussing them. The topic is not
often discussed in any detail. They aren't all that well known, get lost among the Sabian HH and Zildjian EAK models, and don't have nearly the cult following
of Old or New K's. I just hope it sounds good....dark, dry, complex, and hopefully with some whispy dragon's breath. It has a lot of hammering on the top side.....but
it's more like the Sabian HH's. So that's one clue that it might sound a lot more like an HH than anything else. Some of these have an old K Istanbul New Stamp look.
And some of those do sound a bit like the old K Istanbuls. And I already know first hand that some very early EAK's sound somewhat like the old K Istanbuls.

Bell looks to be well under 5". And I've noted several other 20/22's with the same small bell It might be the standard bell for these? Bell hole looks "smaller" like 7/16".
So the more old K Istanbul features they have the better imo. There doesn't appear to be any data on the time frame of country vs. no country of origin and which were made first....or made concurrently.
In looking at them the past 2 yrs.....I "seem" to notice considerably more "Made in Canada" ones.



View attachment 593791 View attachment 593792 View attachment 593793 View attachment 593798
That'
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Sabian HM Ride Bottom.jpg
Sabian HM Ride Bottom.jpg
Sabian MH Ride Top.jpg
s a beautiful ride - very similar hammering to my early Canadian Medium Heavy Sabian.
 

Tama CW

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Received that 22 Canadian K in today. Actual weight on my scale is 3250 gm. Measures exactly 22". Bell hole is 1/2". Bell appears to me to measure 4-3/4" but could
be as much as 5 to 5-1/8". No larger. The cymbal does sound very much like a New Stamp. I have another to compare it against and other than the larger weight difference,
I can't tell any real sonic differences, other than on the bell. And even the bells are somewhat similar even if their size and shape is not. Haven't heard an early HH before so really
can't comment on how those compare. But, I'm pleased his one seems to have the old K Istanbul complex tonal qualities. Early EAK's don't sound like this. And I suspect
the early HH's probably don't either.


IMG_7573.JPG
 
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