Are there any video's or sound files showing the sound difference between a 45 and 30 degree bearing

Markkuliini

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MrDrums2112 said:
I could not tell any difference - they all sounded virtually the same to me, maybe tuned a little too high? The explanation sounded good though.
To me the last one (rounded batter edge) sounded clearly different to the first one. Third snare drier and warmer, and the overtones were shorter and more subdued. I'm absolutely sure I would recognise them in a test. But the middle drum sounded very close to the first drum, clearly modifying the bottom edge only has very minimal effect. Maybe it changes more how the head feels than how the drum sounds?
If this demo only had the first and the third drum (I think Steve Maxwell has a demo like that too), it would be much more obvious. But the similar sounding second drum effects this demo quite a bit, some listeners probably decide at that point that there is no difference between any of these.

You used good head phones or hifi-sparker, right?
 
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MrDrums2112

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Markkuliini said:
I could not tell any difference - they all sounded virtually the same to me, maybe tuned a little too high? The explanation sounded good though.
To me the last one (rounded batter edge) sounded clearly different to the first one. Third snare drier and warmer, and the overtones were shorter and more subdued. I'm absolutely sure I would recognise them in a test. But the middle drum sounded very close to the first drum, clearly modifying the bottom edge only has very minimal effect. Maybe it changes more how the head feels than how the drum sounds?
If this demo only had the first and the third drum (I think Steve Maxwell has a demo like that too), it would be much more obvious. But the similar sounding second drum effects this demo quite a bit, some listeners probably decide at that point that there is no difference between any of these.

You used good head phones or hifi-sparker, right?
I do have a hard time telling differences in found on these vids, so maybe thats it. I think your point about how the drum will feel with the different types of bearing edges makes a lot of sense.
 
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A J

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I could never tell the difference in sound between a 30 and 45 degree bearing edge. There are simply too many other factors that affect the sound (heads, tuning, room, etc...). My gut feeling is that there is little to no perceivable difference between them.
 

Markkuliini

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MrDrums2112 said:
I could not tell any difference - they all sounded virtually the same to me, maybe tuned a little too high? The explanation sounded good though.
To me the last one (rounded batter edge) sounded clearly different to the first one. Third snare drier and warmer, and the overtones were shorter and more subdued. I'm absolutely sure I would recognise them in a test. But the middle drum sounded very close to the first drum, clearly modifying the bottom edge only has very minimal effect. Maybe it changes more how the head feels than how the drum sounds?
If this demo only had the first and the third drum (I think Steve Maxwell has a demo like that too), it would be much more obvious. But the similar sounding second drum effects this demo quite a bit, some listeners probably decide at that point that there is no difference between any of these.

You used good head phones or hifi-sparker, right?I do have a hard time telling differences in found on these vids, so maybe thats it. I think your point about how the drum will feel with the different types of bearing edges makes a lot of sense.
Found much better video where Steve is comparing 45 degree edge and rounded edge side by side while they are all set up on stands. Makes it easier to hear the subtle differences. Also, the tunings are pretty much identical here.

 
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Hanover Fiste said:
There is no difference. Once the bearing edge isn't in contact with the head, the angle at which it departs can't possibly make a difference to the sohnd of a drum. The outside profile/amount of round-over is the important part.
Logically, I agree but practically I don't agree. The reason it matters is because the inside angle cut determines the amount of mass of the outside profile. If you take a two identical shells and cut a 45 on one and a 30 on the other, the 30 outside profile will have more mass.
Ok, let's take 2 identical drums, one with a 30 inside cut and the other with a 45 cut, and you can do a blindfolded A/B test to see how much difference to the sound of a drum a few grams makes. The slight inconsistencies between drumheads and the mass and grain structure of the shells would almost certainly trump the effect of a tiny bit more/less wood on the bearing edges.



Maybe I'm not explaining good enough. Let me try again. The inner cut profile basically determines the amount of mass on the outside/ profile. If you take two identical shells and route them with different inner profiles then the outer profile mass will be different as well as the point on the shell where the inner profile starts. This matters exponentially when you tighten the head over the shell which affects the sound. BTW...watch the video right above :)
 

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Within reason the angle of the cut doesn't make much difference...certainly 30 to 45 doesn't, but the shape of the actual edge means everything.An overly sharp edge will numb the tone and duration quite radically. Even an edge like you see on a stamped shell like a 400 will give you a lot of tone to work with...and that's basically just one big round over. There has to be some meat there.
 

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Markkuliini, I'm glad you found a better video example that does show a difference, I knew there was one somewhere! I'm no scientist or drum craftsman but I find all this stuff very interesting, - like why does a certain drum sound different to another. My vintage radio king snares DO sound different because of rounder edges.
 

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There is no difference. Once the bearing edge isn't in contact with the head, the angle at which it departs can't possibly make a difference to the sohnd of a drum. The outside profile/amount of round-over is the important part.
Logically, I agree but practically I don't agree. The reason it matters is because the inside angle cut determines the amount of mass of the outside profile. If you take a two identical shells and cut a 45 on one and a 30 on the other, the 30 outside profile will have more mass.
Ok, let's take 2 identical drums, one with a 30 inside cut and the other with a 45 cut, and you can do a blindfolded A/B test to see how much difference to the sound of a drum a few grams makes. The slight inconsistencies between drumheads and the mass and grain structure of the shells would almost certainly trump the effect of a tiny bit more/less wood on the bearing edges.
Maybe I'm not explaining good enough. Let me try again. The inner cut profile basically determines the amount of mass on the outside/ profile. If you take two identical shells and route them with different inner profiles then the outer profile mass will be different as well as the point on the shell where the inner profile starts. This matters exponentially when you tighten the head over the shell which affects the sound. BTW...watch the video right above :)
Olderschool said:
There is no difference. Once the bearing edge isn't in contact with the head, the angle at which it departs can't possibly make a difference to the sohnd of a drum. The outside profile/amount of round-over is the important part.
Logically, I agree but practically I don't agree. The reason it matters is because the inside angle cut determines the amount of mass of the outside profile. If you take a two identical shells and cut a 45 on one and a 30 on the other, the 30 outside profile will have more mass.
Ok, let's take 2 identical drums, one with a 30 inside cut and the other with a 45 cut, and you can do a blindfolded A/B test to see how much difference to the sound of a drum a few grams makes. The slight inconsistencies between drumheads and the mass and grain structure of the shells would almost certainly trump the effect of a tiny bit more/less wood on the bearing edges.

Maybe I'm not explaining good enough. Let me try again. The inner cut profile basically determines the amount of mass on the outside/ profile. If you take two identical shells and route them with different inner profiles then the outer profile mass will be different as well as the point on the shell where the inner profile starts. This matters exponentially when you tighten the head over the shell which affects the sound. BTW...watch the video right above

I've seen that video before....exponential difference? It's a little more subtle than you are implying. Non drummers would have a tough time telling the difference in most cases and the overstated effect of the type of edges on drums is largely marketing hype. Not to say edges don't have any effect, but their contribution to the sound of a drum are greatly exaggerated.

Anyway, back to your point. I would contend that the outside profile is what contributes everything. The angle of the inside cut does not determine the amount of mass on the outer profile. The ply on which you decide to apex your bearing edge does. The OP's question was about the angle of departure for the inside cut, not which ply it starts on.
 

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Yes you did - I picked up on that too.
 

andrewro

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Is it okay to:

1. Maybe assume there's a difference in sustain/response with a different edge;

2. The feel of stick on/off the head may be different with a different edge / the player gets what they want from a certain drum maker back in the day?
 

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Here's my approach: I think there is a difference between a round edge and a sharp edge, round = warm, sharp = bright.

This is why (professionally made kits) bass drums will have a round edge and toms/snare will typically be sharp. I think they wouldn't do this unless there was a difference.

These are two extremes to highlight the point, sometimes when you have a problem to solve it's best to exaggerate the point in order to see clearer. A 45 and 30 edge are much closer together and the difference might be minimal, but it's there.
 

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Drumstickdude said:
This is for everyone, look in the comments section (Larry Alexander) and click on the time stamps for an easy, direct comparison. There's too much talking in between, this is the way to do it.
 
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Olderschool

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Hanover Fiste said:
There is no difference. Once the bearing edge isn't in contact with the head, the angle at which it departs can't possibly make a difference to the sohnd of a drum. The outside profile/amount of round-over is the important part.
Logically, I agree but practically I don't agree. The reason it matters is because the inside angle cut determines the amount of mass of the outside profile. If you take a two identical shells and cut a 45 on one and a 30 on the other, the 30 outside profile will have more mass.
Ok, let's take 2 identical drums, one with a 30 inside cut and the other with a 45 cut, and you can do a blindfolded A/B test to see how much difference to the sound of a drum a few grams makes. The slight inconsistencies between drumheads and the mass and grain structure of the shells would almost certainly trump the effect of a tiny bit more/less wood on the bearing edges.
Maybe I'm not explaining good enough. Let me try again. The inner cut profile basically determines the amount of mass on the outside/ profile. If you take two identical shells and route them with different inner profiles then the outer profile mass will be different as well as the point on the shell where the inner profile starts. This matters exponentially when you tighten the head over the shell which affects the sound. BTW...watch the video right above :)
There is no difference. Once the bearing edge isn't in contact with the head, the angle at which it departs can't possibly make a difference to the sohnd of a drum. The outside profile/amount of round-over is the important part.
Logically, I agree but practically I don't agree. The reason it matters is because the inside angle cut determines the amount of mass of the outside profile. If you take a two identical shells and cut a 45 on one and a 30 on the other, the 30 outside profile will have more mass.
Ok, let's take 2 identical drums, one with a 30 inside cut and the other with a 45 cut, and you can do a blindfolded A/B test to see how much difference to the sound of a drum a few grams makes. The slight inconsistencies between drumheads and the mass and grain structure of the shells would almost certainly trump the effect of a tiny bit more/less wood on the bearing edges.
Maybe I'm not explaining good enough. Let me try again. The inner cut profile basically determines the amount of mass on the outside/ profile. If you take two identical shells and route them with different inner profiles then the outer profile mass will be different as well as the point on the shell where the inner profile starts. This matters exponentially when you tighten the head over the shell which affects the sound. BTW...watch the video right above

I've seen that video before....exponential difference? It's a little more subtle than you are implying. Non drummers would have a tough time telling the difference in most cases and the overstated effect of the type of edges on drums is largely marketing hype. Not to say edges don't have any effect, but their contribution to the sound of a drum are greatly exaggerated.

Anyway, back to your point. I would contend that the outside profile is what contributes everything. The angle of the inside cut does not determine the amount of mass on the outer profile. The ply on which you decide to apex your bearing edge does. The OP's question was about the angle of departure for the inside cut, not which ply it starts on.



No....you brought that up when you first responded by claiming "There is no difference. Once the bearing edge isn't in contact with the head, the angle at which it departs can't possibly make a difference to the sohnd of a drum. The outside profile/amount of round-over is the important part." I'm trying to agree with your point in theory but also explaining why the inside cut affects the outside cut and mass that the drum head rest on, which means it also can effect the ply the edge lands on......depending on the shell layup. Sorry but you seem intent on arguing and winning some point.
 

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Olderschool said:
There is no difference. Once the bearing edge isn't in contact with the head, the angle at which it departs can't possibly make a difference to the sohnd of a drum. The outside profile/amount of round-over is the important part.
Logically, I agree but practically I don't agree. The reason it matters is because the inside angle cut determines the amount of mass of the outside profile. If you take a two identical shells and cut a 45 on one and a 30 on the other, the 30 outside profile will have more mass.
Ok, let's take 2 identical drums, one with a 30 inside cut and the other with a 45 cut, and you can do a blindfolded A/B test to see how much difference to the sound of a drum a few grams makes. The slight inconsistencies between drumheads and the mass and grain structure of the shells would almost certainly trump the effect of a tiny bit more/less wood on the bearing edges.
Maybe I'm not explaining good enough. Let me try again. The inner cut profile basically determines the amount of mass on the outside/ profile. If you take two identical shells and route them with different inner profiles then the outer profile mass will be different as well as the point on the shell where the inner profile starts. This matters exponentially when you tighten the head over the shell which affects the sound. BTW...watch the video right above :)





There is no difference. Once the bearing edge isn't in contact with the head, the angle at which it departs can't possibly make a difference to the sohnd of a drum. The outside profile/amount of round-over is the important part.
Logically, I agree but practically I don't agree. The reason it matters is because the inside angle cut determines the amount of mass of the outside profile. If you take a two identical shells and cut a 45 on one and a 30 on the other, the 30 outside profile will have more mass.
Ok, let's take 2 identical drums, one with a 30 inside cut and the other with a 45 cut, and you can do a blindfolded A/B test to see how much difference to the sound of a drum a few grams makes. The slight inconsistencies between drumheads and the mass and grain structure of the shells would almost certainly trump the effect of a tiny bit more/less wood on the bearing edges.
Maybe I'm not explaining good enough. Let me try again. The inner cut profile basically determines the amount of mass on the outside/ profile. If you take two identical shells and route them with different inner profiles then the outer profile mass will be different as well as the point on the shell where the inner profile starts. This matters exponentially when you tighten the head over the shell which affects the sound. BTW...watch the video right above

I've seen that video before....exponential difference? It's a little more subtle than you are implying. Non drummers would have a tough time telling the difference in most cases and the overstated effect of the type of edges on drums is largely marketing hype. Not to say edges don't have any effect, but their contribution to the sound of a drum are greatly exaggerated.

Anyway, back to your point. I would contend that the outside profile is what contributes everything. The angle of the inside cut does not determine the amount of mass on the outer profile. The ply on which you decide to apex your bearing edge does. The OP's question was about the angle of departure for the inside cut, not which ply it starts on.



No....you brought that up when you first responded by claiming "There is no difference. Once the bearing edge isn't in contact with the head, the angle at which it departs can't possibly make a difference to the sohnd of a drum. The outside profile/amount of round-over is the important part." I'm trying to agree with your point in theory but also explaining why the inside cut affects the outside cut and mass that the drum head rest on, which means it also can effect the ply the edge lands on......depending on the shell layup. Sorry but you seem intent on arguing and winning some point.





It took a awhile to understand why the inner cut angle effects the outside cut, but then I started to think how the router works, and it suddenly made sense.
 

Olderschool

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Markkuliini said:
There is no difference. Once the bearing edge isn't in contact with the head, the angle at which it departs can't possibly make a difference to the sohnd of a drum. The outside profile/amount of round-over is the important part.
Logically, I agree but practically I don't agree. The reason it matters is because the inside angle cut determines the amount of mass of the outside profile. If you take a two identical shells and cut a 45 on one and a 30 on the other, the 30 outside profile will have more mass.
Ok, let's take 2 identical drums, one with a 30 inside cut and the other with a 45 cut, and you can do a blindfolded A/B test to see how much difference to the sound of a drum a few grams makes. The slight inconsistencies between drumheads and the mass and grain structure of the shells would almost certainly trump the effect of a tiny bit more/less wood on the bearing edges.
Maybe I'm not explaining good enough. Let me try again. The inner cut profile basically determines the amount of mass on the outside/ profile. If you take two identical shells and route them with different inner profiles then the outer profile mass will be different as well as the point on the shell where the inner profile starts. This matters exponentially when you tighten the head over the shell which affects the sound. BTW...watch the video right above :)





There is no difference. Once the bearing edge isn't in contact with the head, the angle at which it departs can't possibly make a difference to the sohnd of a drum. The outside profile/amount of round-over is the important part.
Logically, I agree but practically I don't agree. The reason it matters is because the inside angle cut determines the amount of mass of the outside profile. If you take a two identical shells and cut a 45 on one and a 30 on the other, the 30 outside profile will have more mass.
Ok, let's take 2 identical drums, one with a 30 inside cut and the other with a 45 cut, and you can do a blindfolded A/B test to see how much difference to the sound of a drum a few grams makes. The slight inconsistencies between drumheads and the mass and grain structure of the shells would almost certainly trump the effect of a tiny bit more/less wood on the bearing edges.
Maybe I'm not explaining good enough. Let me try again. The inner cut profile basically determines the amount of mass on the outside/ profile. If you take two identical shells and route them with different inner profiles then the outer profile mass will be different as well as the point on the shell where the inner profile starts. This matters exponentially when you tighten the head over the shell which affects the sound. BTW...watch the video right above

I've seen that video before....exponential difference? It's a little more subtle than you are implying. Non drummers would have a tough time telling the difference in most cases and the overstated effect of the type of edges on drums is largely marketing hype. Not to say edges don't have any effect, but their contribution to the sound of a drum are greatly exaggerated.

Anyway, back to your point. I would contend that the outside profile is what contributes everything. The angle of the inside cut does not determine the amount of mass on the outer profile. The ply on which you decide to apex your bearing edge does. The OP's question was about the angle of departure for the inside cut, not which ply it starts on.



No....you brought that up when you first responded by claiming "There is no difference. Once the bearing edge isn't in contact with the head, the angle at which it departs can't possibly make a difference to the sohnd of a drum. The outside profile/amount of round-over is the important part." I'm trying to agree with your point in theory but also explaining why the inside cut affects the outside cut and mass that the drum head rest on, which means it also can effect the ply the edge lands on......depending on the shell layup. Sorry but you seem intent on arguing and winning some point.




It took a awhile to understand why the inner cut angle effects the outside cut, but then I started to think how the router works, and it suddenly made sense.



Yeah....me too. I used to always ponder why people talked about the inside angle? I thought, WHT difference does it make since the head doesn't rest on the inside angle? Then, I learned here why :) Now, I have my own router table and make furniture and can start to grasp how one affects the other.
 

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There is no difference. Once the bearing edge isn't in contact with the head, the angle at which it departs can't possibly make a difference to the sohnd of a drum. The outside profile/amount of round-over is the important part.
Logically, I agree but practically I don't agree. The reason it matters is because the inside angle cut determines the amount of mass of the outside profile. If you take a two identical shells and cut a 45 on one and a 30 on the other, the 30 outside profile will have more mass.
Ok, let's take 2 identical drums, one with a 30 inside cut and the other with a 45 cut, and you can do a blindfolded A/B test to see how much difference to the sound of a drum a few grams makes. The slight inconsistencies between drumheads and the mass and grain structure of the shells would almost certainly trump the effect of a tiny bit more/less wood on the bearing edges.
Maybe I'm not explaining good enough. Let me try again. The inner cut profile basically determines the amount of mass on the outside/ profile. If you take two identical shells and route them with different inner profiles then the outer profile mass will be different as well as the point on the shell where the inner profile starts. This matters exponentially when you tighten the head over the shell which affects the sound. BTW...watch the video right above :)
Olderschool said:
There is no difference. Once the bearing edge isn't in contact with the head, the angle at which it departs can't possibly make a difference to the sohnd of a drum. The outside profile/amount of round-over is the important part.
Logically, I agree but practically I don't agree. The reason it matters is because the inside angle cut determines the amount of mass of the outside profile. If you take a two identical shells and cut a 45 on one and a 30 on the other, the 30 outside profile will have more mass.
Ok, let's take 2 identical drums, one with a 30 inside cut and the other with a 45 cut, and you can do a blindfolded A/B test to see how much difference to the sound of a drum a few grams makes. The slight inconsistencies between drumheads and the mass and grain structure of the shells would almost certainly trump the effect of a tiny bit more/less wood on the bearing edges.Maybe I'm not explaining good enough. Let me try again. The inner cut profile basically determines the amount of mass on the outside/ profile. If you take two identical shells and route them with different inner profiles then the outer profile mass will be different as well as the point on the shell where the inner profile starts. This matters exponentially when you tighten the head over the shell which affects the sound. BTW...watch the video right above

I've seen that video before....exponential difference? It's a little more subtle than you are implying. Non drummers would have a tough time telling the difference in most cases and the overstated effect of the type of edges on drums is largely marketing hype. Not to say edges don't have any effect, but their contribution to the sound of a drum are greatly exaggerated.

Anyway, back to your point. I would contend that the outside profile is what contributes everything. The angle of the inside cut does not determine the amount of mass on the outer profile. The ply on which you decide to apex your bearing edge does. The OP's question was about the angle of departure for the inside cut, not which ply it starts on.
No....you brought that up when you first responded by claiming "There is no difference. Once the bearing edge isn't in contact with the head, the angle at which it departs can't possibly make a difference to the sohnd of a drum. The outside profile/amount of round-over is the important part." I'm trying to agree with your point in theory but also explaining why the inside cut affects the outside cut and mass that the drum head rest on, which means it also can effect the ply the edge lands on......depending on the shell layup. Sorry but you seem intent on arguing and winning some point.
Probably the best way to show that I'm not an argumentative person is to show you that I have no need to "win" by simply not responding to that. You do you...
 


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