Are there any video's or sound files showing the sound difference between a 45 and 30 degree bearing

Olderschool

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That's fair but the main issue is whether you understand the reasoning behind the inner cuts affecting the mass that the drumhead contacts. This overall affects the sound. I believe that is the crux of the conversation. I don't think anyone is claiming that an angle that the drumhead does not come in contact with affects the sound in any way. All is cool.....
 

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Yah, back on post #20, I think I illustrated that I got what you were saying, and once again I ask, do you really think your ears could reliably tell the difference between a 30 and a 45 inner cut in a blind A/B comparison? Mine couldn't. Once again, I assert that there are all kinds of other variables that would alter the sound of two "identical" drums way more than a few grams difference in mass on the bearing edges. Is your mass theory based on conjecture or an actual audible difference you have noticed by empirically comparing 2 identical drums with identical outer profiles, but with 2 different inner angles? If this added mass makes a noticeable difference, how come no one does a 10 inner cut? I would think even 7 or 8 degrees would be enough for the outer edge of the head not to bottom out on the inner cut when struck.

The differences in sound between the different OUTER profiles are subtle, for cryin' out loud. How much difference in sound could the inner angle (and the corresponding small difference in mass) possibly make?

I don't buy that a different inner angle makes for a different feel either. I don't think this was your asertion in previous posts, but I just couldn't possibly believe that it could affect the feel of a head even a fraction as much as the slightest of tension adjustments, there's just no way. Not trying to argue, just saying that I don't buy it. It's ok if we don't agree, y'all. Peace!
 

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Hanover Fiste said:
Yah, back on post #20, I think I illustrated that I got what you were saying, and once again I ask, do you really think your ears could reliably tell the difference between a 30 and a 45 inner cut in a blind A/B comparison? Mine couldn't. Once again, I assert that there are all kinds of other variables that would alter the sound of two "identical" drums way more than a few grams difference in mass on the bearing edges. Is your mass theory based on conjecture or an actual audible difference you have noticed by empirically comparing 2 identical drums with identical outer profiles, but with 2 different inner angles? If this added mass makes a noticeable difference, how come no one does a 10 inner cut? I would think even 7 or 8 degrees would be enough for the outer edge of the head not to bottom out on the inner cut when struck.

The differences in sound between the different OUTER profiles are subtle, for cryin' out loud. How much difference in sound could the inner angle (and the corresponding small difference in mass) possibly make?

I don't buy that a different inner angle makes for a different feel either. I don't think this was your asertion in previous posts, but I just couldn't possibly believe that it could affect the feel of a head even a fraction as much as the slightest of tension adjustments, there's just no way. Not trying to argue, just saying that I don't buy it. It's ok if we don't agree, y'all. Peace!
In what context do you mean when you ask "do you really think your ears could reliably tell the difference between a 30 and a 45 inner cut in a blind A/B comparison?" Are you referring to studio recordings or me sitting in my living room with completely identical drum setups. I sure could tell based on the video posted above in post #46.
 

xsabers

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To me, there are a couple of details that seem to be missing from the "it makes no difference" argument. First, the examples on video are mostly, if not solely, snares. I maintain that the biggest audible differences would be on toms were sustain and resonance are more impactful. Second, I think the argument about the angle of the edge after it has lost any hope of contact with the head is missing the point. It's the angle of the edge that is impacted by different degrees. A 45 degree cut should have a sharper point of contact with the head while on the other end of the spectrum, a roundover will have significant contact with the head. A 30 degree cut will be much more like a 45 in that the edge will be relatively sharp, but it will be slightly less sharp than the 45. Subtle at best, but it's also not unreasonable to consider that as a component, it adds to the "sum of all parts" equation affecting in some manner the final sound. Not that it supersedes the type of hoop or wood or heads or tuning, etc, but it sits as an integer in the algebraic equation that results in a drum's sound.
 

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xsabers said:
To me, there are a couple of details that seem to be missing from the "it makes no difference" argument. First, the examples on video are mostly, if not solely, snares. I maintain that the biggest audible differences would be on toms were sustain and resonance are more impactful. Second, I think the argument about the angle of the edge after it has lost any hope of contact with the head is missing the point. It's the angle of the edge that is impacted by different degrees. A 45 degree cut should have a sharper point of contact with the head while on the other end of the spectrum, a roundover will have significant contact with the head. A 30 degree cut will be much more like a 45 in that the edge will be relatively sharp, but it will be slightly less sharp than the 45. Subtle at best, but it's also not unreasonable to consider that as a component, it adds to the "sum of all parts" equation affecting in some manner the final sound. Not that it supersedes the type of hoop or wood or heads or tuning, etc, but it sits as an integer in the algebraic equation that results in a drum's sound.
But, can you discern what the angle of the edge is if all you hear is the one drum or one drum set that is being played when you hear it? If you can, you're super human. You either like the sound, don't like the sound, or don't have an opinion.
 

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Olderschool said:
Yah, back on post #20, I think I illustrated that I got what you were saying, and once again I ask, do you really think your ears could reliably tell the difference between a 30 and a 45 inner cut in a blind A/B comparison? Mine couldn't. Once again, I assert that there are all kinds of other variables that would alter the sound of two "identical" drums way more than a few grams difference in mass on the bearing edges. Is your mass theory based on conjecture or an actual audible difference you have noticed by empirically comparing 2 identical drums with identical outer profiles, but with 2 different inner angles? If this added mass makes a noticeable difference, how come no one does a 10 inner cut? I would think even 7 or 8 degrees would be enough for the outer edge of the head not to bottom out on the inner cut when struck.
The differences in sound between the different OUTER profiles are subtle, for cryin' out loud. How much difference in sound could the inner angle (and the corresponding small difference in mass) possibly make?
I don't buy that a different inner angle makes for a different feel either. I don't think this was your asertion in previous posts, but I just couldn't possibly believe that it could affect the feel of a head even a fraction as much as the slightest of tension adjustments, there's just no way. Not trying to argue, just saying that I don't buy it. It's ok if we don't agree, y'all. Peace!
In what context do you mean when you ask "do you really think your ears could reliably tell the difference between a 30 and a 45 inner cut in a blind A/B comparison?" Are you referring to studio recordings or me sitting in my living room with completely identical drum setups. I sure could tell based on the video posted above in post #46.
Well, first of all, that isn't a blind comparison of different drums- you know which one is being played, so your preconceived notions and biases can "fill in the blanks", so to speak, and effect what you think you're hearing. I'm not implying that you are imagining things, that's just what happens when humans (myself included) know what it is that they are comparing when they already have an opinion or preconceived notion on the matter before going in. We're apes with brains and egos, that's just what we do. Many, many psychology experiments have illustrated this.

Secondly, that clip wasn't a comparison of 45 and 30 inner cuts with the same outer profile, it was a comparison between sharp 45's with hardly any round-over on the outher edge and baseball bat edges. It was effectively a comparison of outer profiles, which I think everyone here agrees has a much greater effect on sound. Even comparing OUTER profiles in that clip, I'm not sure I could reliably tell you which drum was which if someone just played the audio of each drum in a random order without stating which drum had which edges. Given the very subtle differences between the 3 drums with different outer profiles, what perceivable audible difference could there possibly be between identical drums with differing inner cuts?

To answer your question, I'm talking about both recordings and playing a drum in person. Recordings- the mics, EQ/compression/etc, heads, tuning are all going to effect the sound of a drum a whole lot more than the inner cut on the bearing edges to the point that it makes them completely irrelevant to the naked ear. Who cares if it shows up on an oscilloscope? I don't. I care about what I can hear that is actually noticable.

The initial responses I gave were aimed at answering the OP's question- what is the difference between different inner angles on bearing edges. For all practical intents and purposes, absolutely nothing acoustically that anyone would be able to hear.
 

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xsabers said:
To me, there are a couple of details that seem to be missing from the "it makes no difference" argument. First, the examples on video are mostly, if not solely, snares. I maintain that the biggest audible differences would be on toms were sustain and resonance are more impactful. Second, I think the argument about the angle of the edge after it has lost any hope of contact with the head is missing the point. It's the angle of the edge that is impacted by different degrees. A 45 degree cut should have a sharper point of contact with the head while on the other end of the spectrum, a roundover will have significant contact with the head. A 30 degree cut will be much more like a 45 in that the edge will be relatively sharp, but it will be slightly less sharp than the 45. Subtle at best, but it's also not unreasonable to consider that as a component, it adds to the "sum of all parts" equation affecting in some manner the final sound. Not that it supersedes the type of hoop or wood or heads or tuning, etc, but it sits as an integer in the algebraic equation that results in a drum's sound.
The inner angle doesn't change the profile, or sharpness, of what the drumhead is sitting on at all. The drumhead only touches what is on the outside of the apex. As far as the drumhead is concerned, and as far as what it actually is in contact with, a 45 inner cut doesn't make for a "sharper" edge than a 30 cut, given identical outer profiles and apexes. To the eye, yeah, one looks sharper, but that's not what effects the sound of a drum. Would you rather drive your car off a 75 cliff or a 90 cliff? One is a sharper angle than the other, but neither cliff face is in contact with your car's tires once you go past the leading edge...

As far as reonance and sustain on toms and bass drums are concerned, the effect of outer profiles is subtle. I play a Ludwig Legacy kit, and having never played a kit with round-over bearing edges before I got this kit, I was expecting them to have less resonance and sutain than my kit with modern, sharp 45 edges on them. Not so. They sound just as full and ring out just as long as any other kit I have played or owned. I do notice a very subtle reduction in attack, but that's about it. If the outer profile makes for that small of a difference in the sound of a drum, how much difference is the inner cut going to make?
 

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W&A Player said:
To me, there are a couple of details that seem to be missing from the "it makes no difference" argument. First, the examples on video are mostly, if not solely, snares. I maintain that the biggest audible differences would be on toms were sustain and resonance are more impactful. Second, I think the argument about the angle of the edge after it has lost any hope of contact with the head is missing the point. It's the angle of the edge that is impacted by different degrees. A 45 degree cut should have a sharper point of contact with the head while on the other end of the spectrum, a roundover will have significant contact with the head. A 30 degree cut will be much more like a 45 in that the edge will be relatively sharp, but it will be slightly less sharp than the 45. Subtle at best, but it's also not unreasonable to consider that as a component, it adds to the "sum of all parts" equation affecting in some manner the final sound. Not that it supersedes the type of hoop or wood or heads or tuning, etc, but it sits as an integer in the algebraic equation that results in a drum's sound.
But, can you discern what the angle of the edge is if all you hear is the one drum or one drum set that is being played when you hear it? If you can, you're super human. You either like the sound, don't like the sound, or don't have an opinion.
Yes, because that's exactly what I said, right? Any number of variables may not be discernible in extreme isolation because it's always the sum of all parts. That makes no difference to the fact that the cut is one of those parts on which the sum is built.
 

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Hanover Fiste said:
Yah, back on post #20, I think I illustrated that I got what you were saying, and once again I ask, do you really think your ears could reliably tell the difference between a 30 and a 45 inner cut in a blind A/B comparison? Mine couldn't. Once again, I assert that there are all kinds of other variables that would alter the sound of two "identical" drums way more than a few grams difference in mass on the bearing edges. Is your mass theory based on conjecture or an actual audible difference you have noticed by empirically comparing 2 identical drums with identical outer profiles, but with 2 different inner angles? If this added mass makes a noticeable difference, how come no one does a 10 inner cut? I would think even 7 or 8 degrees would be enough for the outer edge of the head not to bottom out on the inner cut when struck.
The differences in sound between the different OUTER profiles are subtle, for cryin' out loud. How much difference in sound could the inner angle (and the corresponding small difference in mass) possibly make?
I don't buy that a different inner angle makes for a different feel either. I don't think this was your asertion in previous posts, but I just couldn't possibly believe that it could affect the feel of a head even a fraction as much as the slightest of tension adjustments, there's just no way. Not trying to argue, just saying that I don't buy it. It's ok if we don't agree, y'all. Peace!
In what context do you mean when you ask "do you really think your ears could reliably tell the difference between a 30 and a 45 inner cut in a blind A/B comparison?" Are you referring to studio recordings or me sitting in my living room with completely identical drum setups. I sure could tell based on the video posted above in post #46.
Well, first of all, that isn't a blind comparison of different drums- you know which one is being played, so your preconceived notions and biases can "fill in the blanks", so to speak, and effect what you think you're hearing. I'm not implying that you are imagining things, that's just what happens when humans (myself included) know what it is that they are comparing when they already have an opinion or preconceived notion on the matter before going in. We're apes with brains and egos, that's just what we do. Many, many psychology experiments have illustrated this.

Secondly, that clip wasn't a comparison of 45 and 30 inner cuts with the same outer profile, it was a comparison between sharp 45's with hardly any round-over on the outher edge and baseball bat edges. It was effectively a comparison of outer profiles, which I think everyone here agrees has a much greater effect on sound. Even comparing OUTER profiles in that clip, I'm not sure I could reliably tell you which drum was which if someone just played the audio of each drum in a random order without stating which drum had which edges. Given the very subtle differences between the 3 drums with different outer profiles, what perceivable audible difference could there possibly be between identical drums with differing inner cuts?

To answer your question, I'm talking about both recordings and playing a drum in person. Recordings- the mics, EQ/compression/etc, heads, tuning are all going to effect the sound of a drum a whole lot more than the inner cut on the bearing edges to the point that it makes them completely irrelevant to the naked ear. Who cares if it shows up on an oscilloscope? I don't. I care about what I can hear that is actually noticable.

The initial responses I gave were aimed at answering the OP's question- what is the difference between different inner angles on bearing edges. For all practical intents and purposes, absolutely nothing acoustically that anyone would be able to hear.



Have I claimed that the inner profile matters that much? If I did I don't know where......but I may have. I thought I was clear that I claimed the outer profile is what makes a difference BUT the outer profile is affected by the inner profile cut.

Look...we are going round and round. You asked for proof and I pointed to a video that showed proof.....at least to my ears. Then you say, it wasn't a blind test, which I didn't realize was part of the criteria. But I will agree that if you are asking if I can tell what drums have a 30 or 45 degree inner angle simply by listening to an unknown random drum, with my eyes closed then of course not.......no more than you can tell any minor characteristic of any drum given the same criteria standard that you seem to be focused on. IOW, can you tell which drum has 6 lugs or 8, 1.6mm vs 2.3mm hoops, luan vs Indian Mahogany, COB vs Luddalloy, 3 ply or 5 ply, 5A or 7A sticks, wrapped vs natural, etc.... by sound alone? Remember, the criteria is blindly listening to random drums and specifically identifying each characteristic ......with every other characteristic being equal? I doubt you or I could differentiate each minor difference. But, does that mean none of these individual characteristics matter in the overall final sound? I think it does. As Xsabers pointed out, the final sound is made up of the entire recipe and a minor change in any ingredient makes the taste different....even if I couldn't tell you what ingredient was specifically different by how much.

Having said that, I believe we get too fixated on the minor characteristics of drums in general. I am from the school that none of this matters in the real world gigging environment because no one except drummers really care. I believe that we get too fixated on the sound of our drums when it's probably the only instrument that the general listening public could care a less what it sounds like. Most of these characteristics are simply marketing ploys that are used to justify insane prices. But that doesn't mean they are completely irrelevant when it comes to the overall sound.... they are just irrelevant to everyone except us drummers....who want to justify spending $5k on a kit. I'll give you the last word :)
 

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With my limited experience, I would agree with most here that the shape of the edge probably has more effect than just the angles cut. Id also say the quality of the edge - as in its absolute flatness, shell in round and overall general evenness is almost as important.

But something that I think makes a massive difference is the placement of the edge in relation to the shell, with an aim for the bearing edge to interface with the head on the flat part of the head, not in the heads collar. Premier (I think) made undersized shells to do it, and Evans currently make Level 360 heads to achieve it.

Ive only done bearing edges on two kits. An 80s Pearl Export and recently an 80s Tama Rockstar kit. On both kits I left the inner edge as it was (45 degrees-ish) and made a new 45 degree outside edge, but took quite a lot of meat out of it to move the edge to the middle of the shell. I then sanded a dead flat 2mm wide surface into the new double 45 and then rounded it over by hand, to get an approximately 3mm roundover edge.

The end result in both cases was perfectly level and the new edges interfaced with the drum head on the flat and not in the collar. It meant I could run any head and the drums would tune up easily. When I got the Pearls, they only sounded good with Pinstripes and the Tamas needed double plies at minimum to sound nice, but after the new edges, I could run any head (single ply, double ply, any brand, whatever) and the drums would tune up easily and not require any sort of muffling. I still have the Tamas and they now sound just as nice, but in a different way, to my Tempus kit.
 

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I can only say for sure that any head mounted on any drum is either touching the edge or is not touching the edge at any given spot. The only and minimally subtle difference the inner edge profile can possibly make is if while in the course of vibrating and flexing, the head can make slightly more and or less contact with the edge, resulting in some slight dampening and also as a result transmitting an incredibly small amount more or less energy to the shell.
Therefore, the shell thickness and round over vs. sharper bearing edge can cause slight differences in sustain and timbre but I'm betting the head construction, plies, and shell diameter and depth have much more influence.
 


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