At what point do made-in-Taiwan/China drums become cool?

JDA

DFO Star
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
16,481
Reaction score
5,335
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
It if wasn't for the American and European drum companies of the last 90 years Japan/Taiwan/China would have nothing to build.
Figure it out.
 

JDA

DFO Star
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
16,481
Reaction score
5,335
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
Pearl never had an Original Idea in their lives. Great drums Nice drums. Solid reliable "great QC" drums. Original Idea? Zip.
 

JDA

DFO Star
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
16,481
Reaction score
5,335
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
And to Think Taiwan drums would be cool? Maybe when boomers and old dudes die off? Ha. Dream again.

As long as there is someone left with Integrity in the year 2050
that shant be the case. Lol
 

FloydZKing

fire bad!
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
6,928
Reaction score
340
While the lauan was more profitable, Pearl had their own ideas too and were making truly great and highly original drums by '66 with their top of the line phenolic Presidents. That was over fifty years ago.

Phenolic, fiberglass, wood-fiberglass, the first seamless acrylics - AFAIK none of these designs were copied.
 

GeneZ

DFO Master
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
4,798
Reaction score
873
Location
Grew up in NY.. now, Georgia -NW of Atlanta
Keep in mind.... God created some people to originate and create. Others he created to copy and improve upon. That's what we are witnessing to with drums.

The good thing, it forced the originators to also improve upon their quality. Keeps us humble that way! :happy11:
 
  • Like
Reactions: TDM

esooy

DFO Veteran
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Messages
1,731
Reaction score
337
GeneZ said:
Keep in mind.... God created some people to originate and create. Others he created to copy and improve upon. That's what we are witnessing to with drums.

The good thing, it forced the originators to also improve upon their quality. Keeps us humble that way! :happy11:
+1

If you look at art and culture of the Chinese and Japanese people from the past THOUSANDS of years, I'd say they have significant ability to create.

Improvement is in itself a creative process. While the US car manufacturers were not interested in being creative at all, the Japanese came along and... well you know. KAIZEN.
 

GeneZ

DFO Master
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
4,798
Reaction score
873
Location
Grew up in NY.. now, Georgia -NW of Atlanta
Eric Sooy said:
Keep in mind.... God created some people to originate and create. Others he created to copy and improve upon. That's what we are witnessing to with drums.

The good thing, it forced the originators to also improve upon their quality. Keeps us humble that way! :happy11:
+1

If you look at art and culture of the Chinese and Japanese people from the past THOUSANDS of years, I'd say they have significant ability to create.

Improvement is in itself a creative process. While the US car manufacturers were not interested in being creative at all, the Japanese came along and... well you know. KAIZEN.
Interesting point... Its not the people. Its the culture that fosters creativity. I have a Cadeson drum with Chinese words and paintings on its shell. The hotel I work at had from mainland China staying there as students at a nearby university. I brought the drum in to see if they could tell me what the words painted on the shell meant.

They stood around the front desk and stared at the drum and looked like deer caught in the headlights. I kept asking them what it meant? All I got was blank stares. Then the American guide stopped by to see what was going on. She told me that the words (drum is from Taiwan) are poetry. And, that in communist China such a thing is frowned upon. I kid you NOT!

Culture (freedom or tyranny) will either stifle or encourage creativity. Its not the race. Its the freedom. Just look at all the innovation in music that came out of the United States with all races contributing!

There would be no rock and roll. There would be no jazz. No blues! There would be no big band! FREEDOM!

Even the British invasion was in many ways rehashed original American music represented in an updated fashion.

It hit me one day. If America were not freedom oriented? No blues. No jazz. No rock and roll. No big band.... Did I miss any?

Freedom is the key. Not race. People are like yogurt in a culture...
 

esooy

DFO Veteran
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Messages
1,731
Reaction score
337
I think people have creativity regardless of where they live and under what political system. Sometimes it's just a matter of how it can be monetized and popularized. It's there, but we can't always see it easily. We choose to view it in certain ways depending on our biases. Blues, Jazz, Rock, Big band - all fairly recent developments in the music world. And, creativity is far, far broader than music and art, and what we typically call "creative." Check out the Chinese artist Ai Weiwei. Very interesting stuff.
 

GeneZ

DFO Master
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
4,798
Reaction score
873
Location
Grew up in NY.. now, Georgia -NW of Atlanta
Eric Sooy said:
I think people have creativity regardless of where they live and under what political system. Sometimes it's just a matter of how it can be monetized and popularized. It's there, but we can't always see it easily. We choose to view it in certain ways depending on our biases. Blues, Jazz, Rock, Big band - all fairly recent developments in the music world. And, creativity is far, far broader than music and art, and what we typically call "creative." Check out the Chinese artist Ai Weiwei. Very interesting stuff.
Its not about race..... Its about freedom. Creative people live under tyranny. No mater what race. There will be creative people born.
 

devinw

DFO Veteran
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
2,756
Reaction score
121
Location
Portland, OR
With regard to the OP's post, the idea that Japanese products are inferior and shoddy is really a racist and unfounded notion from the WWII era. Yes, there were some crappy musical instruments that came from Japan (and the US!) from the 50s and 60s, BUT by and large the Japanese have been on the forefront of manufacturing technology since...forever. They've been as good or better at us at making electronics, cars, you name it for a very long time. So, it's no wonder there are so many fantastic instruments like Yamaha Recording Customs have come out of Japan.

China, on the other hand, has a very long history of their manufacturing base producing the lowest cost, and often knockoff version of many many things. They also are undergoing their industrial revolution and have, since the 90s, been a hot bed of outsourced manufacturing for American AND Japanese companies. As their industrial base has grown, the quality has gone way up. On the other hand, outsourcing has it's own issues with communication, quality control, process control, etc... That, and as China grows, they will not always be the cheapest place to make parts. There's even a strong swing to bring a lot of manufacturing back to the US. I suspect Japan will follow.

All that being said, I think the interesting thing to watch will be to see actual Chinese companies making instruments in China. There might be some really cool, high quality stuff coming out in the next 10 years. We shall see.

In the meantime, gimme the "good old stuff" like the US made Allegras, early DW, etc.. and the Japenese made Yammys. Top notch all around.
 

dogmanaut

DFO Veteran
Joined
Feb 3, 2012
Messages
1,654
Reaction score
439
Location
USA
devinw said:
With regard to the OP's post, the idea that Japanese products are inferior and shoddy is really a racist and unfounded notion from the WWII era. Yes, there were some crappy musical instruments that came from Japan (and the US!) from the 50s and 60s, BUT by and large the Japanese have been on the forefront of manufacturing technology since...forever. They've been as good or better at us at making electronics, cars, you name it for a very long time. So, it's no wonder there are so many fantastic instruments like Yamaha Recording Customs have come out of Japan.
Hmm. I know you say "with regard to the OP's post," but you then go on to misrepresent what I said in that post in fairly significant ways, albeit indirectly, so I really hope your comment wasn't actually aimed at me -- particularly the "racist" crack.

(Don't mean to bristle unnecessarily, so apologies in advance if that isn't what you meant.)
 

GeneZ

DFO Master
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
4,798
Reaction score
873
Location
Grew up in NY.. now, Georgia -NW of Atlanta
dogmanaut said:
With regard to the OP's post, the idea that Japanese products are inferior and shoddy is really a racist and unfounded notion from the WWII era. Yes, there were some crappy musical instruments that came from Japan (and the US!) from the 50s and 60s, BUT by and large the Japanese have been on the forefront of manufacturing technology since...forever. They've been as good or better at us at making electronics, cars, you name it for a very long time. So, it's no wonder there are so many fantastic instruments like Yamaha Recording Customs have come out of Japan.
Hmm. I know you say "with regard to the OP's post," but you then go on to misrepresent what I said in that post in fairly significant ways, albeit indirectly, so I really hope your comment wasn't actually aimed at me -- particularly the "racist" crack.

(Don't mean to bristle unnecessarily, so apologies in advance if that isn't what you meant.)
Your response was appropriate. For your perception was the same I had, and most likely others too. Some people have knee jerk minds when they see anything related to race mentioned, and feel its the righteous thing to do to call someone racists. They have no balance. Its seems they have been inculcated to think that way.
 

DanC

"Get in, sit down, shut up, hold on"
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
13,717
Reaction score
575
Location
Somewhere in Florida, behind a Rogers kit
I grew up in the 50's and 60's and, believe me, most Japanese made goods were inferior. This was a country that had been reduced to rubble only 15 years before 1960, and they were still struggling to get their industrial production on track. If you went to the hardware store, you rarely even saw anything that said 'made in Japan', primarily because there were millions of folks who had family members in WWII and considering the horror of the war, you could hardly blame them for their resentment.
Adding to the issue was the really inferior quality of the goods. Anything made of metal was roughly cast or machined, the quality of the metal itself was poor, and the tools or metal parts would quickly rust or break. The same was true of many other Japanese products, toys etc. Everything was made in the USA in those days (like the vintage drums we all know and love) and it was all good stuff.
The Japanese started to get over the hump in the 70's, and by the 80's they were becoming a force to be reckoned with. As their products showed more and more quality and value, their industrial machine took off.

It's not racist or unfair to recognize this, it's historical fact. And we all recognize the dominant force they have become: they make top notch, quality goods.
Unfortunately, their economy is sluggish these days, and the outlook is not good. Their shrinking population and the aging of their population are major factors behind this, but that's for another discussion...
 

BennyK

DFO Star
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
14,909
Reaction score
1,896
Good ol' boy Tommy Aldridge has been using Yamaha since the 60's(or so), long before anybody else . Ain't too many with hipper chops than him .
 

BennyK

DFO Star
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
14,909
Reaction score
1,896
GeneZ said:
With regard to the OP's post, the idea that Japanese products are inferior and shoddy is really a racist and unfounded notion from the WWII era. Yes, there were some crappy musical instruments that came from Japan (and the US!) from the 50s and 60s, BUT by and large the Japanese have been on the forefront of manufacturing technology since...forever. They've been as good or better at us at making electronics, cars, you name it for a very long time. So, it's no wonder there are so many fantastic instruments like Yamaha Recording Customs have come out of Japan.
Hmm. I know you say "with regard to the OP's post," but you then go on to misrepresent what I said in that post in fairly significant ways, albeit indirectly, so I really hope your comment wasn't actually aimed at me -- particularly the "racist" crack.

(Don't mean to bristle unnecessarily, so apologies in advance if that isn't what you meant.)
Your response was appropriate. For your perception was the same I had, and most likely others too. Some people have knee jerk minds when they see anything related to race mentioned, and feel its the righteous thing to do to call someone racists. They have no balance. Its seems they have been inculcated to think that way.




If you insist on running your head into that wall, I hope you have a helmet on, Mr Z.
 

GeneZ

DFO Master
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
4,798
Reaction score
873
Location
Grew up in NY.. now, Georgia -NW of Atlanta
BennyK said:
With regard to the OP's post, the idea that Japanese products are inferior and shoddy is really a racist and unfounded notion from the WWII era. Yes, there were some crappy musical instruments that came from Japan (and the US!) from the 50s and 60s, BUT by and large the Japanese have been on the forefront of manufacturing technology since...forever. They've been as good or better at us at making electronics, cars, you name it for a very long time. So, it's no wonder there are so many fantastic instruments like Yamaha Recording Customs have come out of Japan.
Hmm. I know you say "with regard to the OP's post," but you then go on to misrepresent what I said in that post in fairly significant ways, albeit indirectly, so I really hope your comment wasn't actually aimed at me -- particularly the "racist" crack.

(Don't mean to bristle unnecessarily, so apologies in advance if that isn't what you meant.)
Your response was appropriate. For your perception was the same I had, and most likely others too. Some people have knee jerk minds when they see anything related to race mentioned, and feel its the righteous thing to do to call someone racists. They have no balance. Its seems they have been inculcated to think that way.




If you insist on running your head into that wall, I hope you have a helmet on, Mr Z.



There is no wall....
 

shilohjim

DFO Veteran
Joined
Dec 9, 2006
Messages
2,561
Reaction score
240
Location
shiloh, nj
Pearl was innovative in many ways. The first phenolic shell, the first SEAMLESS acrylic shell, first company to put nylon bushings in their stands, The free floating snare system, Vari-pitch drums, the first DECENT drum rack (with square tubing).
 

devinw

DFO Veteran
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
2,756
Reaction score
121
Location
Portland, OR
dogmanaut said:
With regard to the OP's post, the idea that Japanese products are inferior and shoddy is really a racist and unfounded notion from the WWII era. Yes, there were some crappy musical instruments that came from Japan (and the US!) from the 50s and 60s, BUT by and large the Japanese have been on the forefront of manufacturing technology since...forever. They've been as good or better at us at making electronics, cars, you name it for a very long time. So, it's no wonder there are so many fantastic instruments like Yamaha Recording Customs have come out of Japan.
Hmm. I know you say "with regard to the OP's post," but you then go on to misrepresent what I said in that post in fairly significant ways, albeit indirectly, so I really hope your comment wasn't actually aimed at me -- particularly the "racist" crack.

(Don't mean to bristle unnecessarily, so apologies in advance if that isn't what you meant.)
I was just differentiating between the ,more local conversations in the past page or so and the actual OT, sometimes things stray.

You said "Just musing on this the other day -- "made in Japan" used to pretty much mean something was crap, a cheap knockoff". I'm not calling you racist at all, but that NOTION *IS* racist and it's mostly unfounded. Get offended if you want, but it's true. A lot of s*** about American history is racist (treatment of Native Americans for $800, Trebeck!). I'm a white man and I'm comfortable saying that. It's OK. We can only heal things by talking about the truth.

It's all good. Everyone take a breath and calm down. I love you all. :)
 

GeneZ

DFO Master
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
4,798
Reaction score
873
Location
Grew up in NY.. now, Georgia -NW of Atlanta
The Japanese were innovative in getting its workers to be dedicated to producing top tier products. After WWll Japan needed to rebuild after much damage. New machinery was needed and replaced the old, while America had her old machinery survive.

Another major factor was American arrogance in the work force came to a head. Arrogance = shoddy workmanship. Its why our auto industry took a plunge. In contrast to our industrial descension, the Japanese ascended as they embraced an American engineer's plan for better production, while the union mentality American industries rejected it. The auto company Saturn was an American experiment in embracing Professor Deming's plan, and the auto union bosses chipped away until it collapsed.... as Honda, Toyota, and the others buried us with what? Quality and value. Work ethic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming W. Edwards Deming.
 


Top