At what point do made-in-Taiwan/China drums become cool?

BennyK

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devinw said:
With regard to the OP's post, the idea that Japanese products are inferior and shoddy is really a racist and unfounded notion from the WWII era. Yes, there were some crappy musical instruments that came from Japan (and the US!) from the 50s and 60s, BUT by and large the Japanese have been on the forefront of manufacturing technology since...forever. They've been as good or better at us at making electronics, cars, you name it for a very long time. So, it's no wonder there are so many fantastic instruments like Yamaha Recording Customs have come out of Japan.
Hmm. I know you say "with regard to the OP's post," but you then go on to misrepresent what I said in that post in fairly significant ways, albeit indirectly, so I really hope your comment wasn't actually aimed at me -- particularly the "racist" crack.

(Don't mean to bristle unnecessarily, so apologies in advance if that isn't what you meant.)
I was just differentiating between the ,more local conversations in the past page or so and the actual OT, sometimes things stray.

You said "Just musing on this the other day -- "made in Japan" used to pretty much mean something was crap, a cheap knockoff". I'm not calling you racist at all, but that NOTION *IS* racist and it's mostly unfounded. Get offended if you want, but it's true. A lot of s*** about American history is racist (treatment of Native Americans for $800, Trebeck!). I'm a white man and I'm comfortable saying that. It's OK. We can only heal things by talking about the truth.

It's all good. Everyone take a breath and calm down. I love you all. :)




White folks manufacture junk too . I'm a white man comfortable with saying that .
 

esooy

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GeneZ said:
The Japanese were innovative in getting its workers to be dedicated to producing top tier products. After WWll Japan needed to rebuild after much damage. New machinery was needed and replaced the old, while America had her old machinery survive.

Another major factor was American arrogance in the work force came to a head. Arrogance = shoddy workmanship. Its why our auto industry took a plunge. In contrast to our industrial descension, the Japanese ascended as they embraced an American engineer's plan for better production, while the union mentality American industries rejected it. The auto company Saturn was an American experiment in embracing Professor Deming's plan, and the auto union bosses chipped away until it collapsed.... as Honda, Toyota, and the others buried us with what? Quality and value. Work ethic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming W. Edwards Deming.
Here is a good radio story about that: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/561/nummi-2015
 

devinw

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BennyK said:
With regard to the OP's post, the idea that Japanese products are inferior and shoddy is really a racist and unfounded notion from the WWII era. Yes, there were some crappy musical instruments that came from Japan (and the US!) from the 50s and 60s, BUT by and large the Japanese have been on the forefront of manufacturing technology since...forever. They've been as good or better at us at making electronics, cars, you name it for a very long time. So, it's no wonder there are so many fantastic instruments like Yamaha Recording Customs have come out of Japan.
Hmm. I know you say "with regard to the OP's post," but you then go on to misrepresent what I said in that post in fairly significant ways, albeit indirectly, so I really hope your comment wasn't actually aimed at me -- particularly the "racist" crack.

(Don't mean to bristle unnecessarily, so apologies in advance if that isn't what you meant.)
I was just differentiating between the ,more local conversations in the past page or so and the actual OT, sometimes things stray.

You said "Just musing on this the other day -- "made in Japan" used to pretty much mean something was crap, a cheap knockoff". I'm not calling you racist at all, but that NOTION *IS* racist and it's mostly unfounded. Get offended if you want, but it's true. A lot of s*** about American history is racist (treatment of Native Americans for $800, Trebeck!). I'm a white man and I'm comfortable saying that. It's OK. We can only heal things by talking about the truth.

It's all good. Everyone take a breath and calm down. I love you all. :)




White folks manufacture junk too . I'm a white man comfortable with saying that .




Um yeah... See: most American cars in the late 70s.
 

BennyK

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I don't genuflect to the steaming heap of bumper sticker wisdom masquerading as the truth these days .

... but you are correct about Vegas and Gremlins .
 

GeneZ

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BennyK said:
I don't genuflect to the steaming heap of bumper sticker wisdom masquerading as the truth these days .

... but you are correct about Vegas and Gremlins .
I stopped buying Oldsmobiles which had been great quality.. It was like seeing your favorite TV show going off the air. Olds declined.. Went through two Saturns, and watched while Saturn was being stabbed to death by the Auto unions that Saturn's operation refuted and threatened. Then.... I bought a Honda. Been with the same Honda over twelve years. End of story.
 

dogmanaut

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devinw said:
I was just differentiating between the ,more local conversations in the past page or so and the actual OT, sometimes things stray.

You said "Just musing on this the other day -- "made in Japan" used to pretty much mean something was crap, a cheap knockoff". I'm not calling you racist at all, but that NOTION *IS* racist and it's mostly unfounded. Get offended if you want, but it's true. A lot of s*** about American history is racist (treatment of Native Americans for $800, Trebeck!). I'm a white man and I'm comfortable saying that. It's OK. We can only heal things by talking about the truth.
I was clearly referring to drums and only drums, hence listing a bunch of MIJ stencil brands in the next phrase after the bit you quoted. Likewise, I was clearly referring to a specific period of Japanese drum making, which should have been obvious -- at least to about 95% of the people on this forum -- just based on the brand names I referenced. And I'm sorry, but those largely were garbage -- by design. The million and half different brands of Luan stencil kits were never meant to compete directly with the Ludwigs and Slingerlands and Leedys of the world. They were meant to be cheap so they could exploit (using that verb in a completely neutral sense) a very specific market, namely all the people who couldn't afford top-dollar stuff. That isn't racism by any stretch. That's just the history of drum manufacturing.

Serious question: were there any high-quality MIJ drums prior to late '60s/early '70s stuff like the Pearl Presidents? I'm personally not aware of any.

Anyway, yeah, I do take issue with your representation of my original post when you say that "the idea that Japanese products are inferior and shoddy is really racist," and then you go on to talk about cars and electronics, etc. That's all a far cry from what my post said. In fact, it's kind of completely missing the point I was making in the first place: that the association with MIJ stuff used to be (past tense) that it was garbage, and now that's clearly changed; so when will the negative association a lot of people seem to have with Chinese/Taiwanese drums change, as well? Now, tell me, what is racist about that?

Last thing I'm going to mention, your accusation just struck me as particularly weird because, for something to be racist, there does have to be a smidge of racial something to motivate it. I know me listing all my Japan-loving credentials doesn't automatically let me off the hook, but let's put it this way: I spent a formative chunk of my life living in Japan. I speak Japanese. A lot of my friends are Japanese. And I'm actually taking time away from planning a trip to Japan right now to deal with this... You get the point, I hope. If I had actually said what you interpreted my post to mean, then sure, maybe racism would have been something to bring up. If you completely disagree about the quality of stencil kits and think their reputation is all just a racist myth, then... I don't know what to tell you, man.

Racism is a real thing. I get that. Having an itchy trigger finger when it comes to calling things "racist," though, really doesn't help anything. It's like branding anyone who mentions that they like German-made Sonor kits a Neo-Nazi...
 

gsw

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They become cool when Amazon slashes them 75% off.
 

devinw

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dogmanaut said:
I was just differentiating between the ,more local conversations in the past page or so and the actual OT, sometimes things stray.

You said "Just musing on this the other day -- "made in Japan" used to pretty much mean something was crap, a cheap knockoff". I'm not calling you racist at all, but that NOTION *IS* racist and it's mostly unfounded. Get offended if you want, but it's true. A lot of s*** about American history is racist (treatment of Native Americans for $800, Trebeck!). I'm a white man and I'm comfortable saying that. It's OK. We can only heal things by talking about the truth.
I was clearly referring to drums and only drums, hence listing a bunch of MIJ stencil brands in the next phrase after the bit you quoted. Likewise, I was clearly referring to a specific period of Japanese drum making, which should have been obvious -- at least to about 95% of the people on this forum -- just based on the brand names I referenced. And I'm sorry, but those largely were garbage -- by design. The million and half different brands of Luan stencil kits were never meant to compete directly with the Ludwigs and Slingerlands and Leedys of the world. They were meant to be cheap so they could exploit (using that verb in a completely neutral sense) a very specific market, namely all the people who couldn't afford top-dollar stuff. That isn't racism by any stretch. That's just the history of drum manufacturing.

Serious question: were there any high-quality MIJ drums prior to late '60s/early '70s stuff like the Pearl Presidents? I'm personally not aware of any.
Anyway, yeah, I do take issue with your representation of my original post when you say that "the idea that Japanese products are inferior and shoddy is really racist," and then you go on to talk about cars and electronics, etc. That's all a far cry from what my post said. In fact, it's kind of completely missing the point I was making in the first place: that the association with MIJ stuff used to be (past tense) that it was garbage, and now that's clearly changed; so when will the negative association a lot of people seem to have with Chinese/Taiwanese drums change, as well? Now, tell me, what is racist about that?

Last thing I'm going to mention, your accusation just struck me as particularly weird because, for something to be racist, there does have to be a smidge of racial something to motivate it. I know me listing all my Japan-loving credentials doesn't automatically let me off the hook, but let's put it this way: I spent a formative chunk of my life living in Japan. I speak Japanese. A lot of my friends are Japanese. And I'm actually taking time away from planning a trip to Japan right now to deal with this... You get the point, I hope. If I had actually said what you interpreted my post to mean, then sure, maybe racism would have been something to bring up. If you completely disagree about the quality of stencil kits and think their reputation is all just a racist myth, then... I don't know what to tell you, man.

Racism is a real thing. I get that. Having an itchy trigger finger when it comes to calling things "racist," though, really doesn't help anything. It's like branding anyone who mentions that they like German-made Sonor kits a Neo-Nazi...
Again, I think you're getting a bit too fired up about this. I'm simply saying that around WWII, a lot of America was pretty racist toward the Japanese. Just a general statement that has truth behind it. Just like a lot of America is pretty racist toward Muslims today. Just open up a comments box on a new story to see proof of that. I'm not attacking you AT ALL.
 

devinw

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BennyK said:
I don't genuflect to the steaming heap of bumper sticker wisdom masquerading as the truth these days .

... but you are correct about Vegas and Gremlins .
Well, we live in a "post truth", and "alternative facts" world, so you definitely have to be careful... ;)
 

dogmanaut

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devinw said:
I was just differentiating between the ,more local conversations in the past page or so and the actual OT, sometimes things stray.

You said "Just musing on this the other day -- "made in Japan" used to pretty much mean something was crap, a cheap knockoff". I'm not calling you racist at all, but that NOTION *IS* racist and it's mostly unfounded. Get offended if you want, but it's true. A lot of s*** about American history is racist (treatment of Native Americans for $800, Trebeck!). I'm a white man and I'm comfortable saying that. It's OK. We can only heal things by talking about the truth.
I was clearly referring to drums and only drums, hence listing a bunch of MIJ stencil brands in the next phrase after the bit you quoted. Likewise, I was clearly referring to a specific period of Japanese drum making, which should have been obvious -- at least to about 95% of the people on this forum -- just based on the brand names I referenced. And I'm sorry, but those largely were garbage -- by design. The million and half different brands of Luan stencil kits were never meant to compete directly with the Ludwigs and Slingerlands and Leedys of the world. They were meant to be cheap so they could exploit (using that verb in a completely neutral sense) a very specific market, namely all the people who couldn't afford top-dollar stuff. That isn't racism by any stretch. That's just the history of drum manufacturing.

Serious question: were there any high-quality MIJ drums prior to late '60s/early '70s stuff like the Pearl Presidents? I'm personally not aware of any.
Anyway, yeah, I do take issue with your representation of my original post when you say that "the idea that Japanese products are inferior and shoddy is really racist," and then you go on to talk about cars and electronics, etc. That's all a far cry from what my post said. In fact, it's kind of completely missing the point I was making in the first place: that the association with MIJ stuff used to be (past tense) that it was garbage, and now that's clearly changed; so when will the negative association a lot of people seem to have with Chinese/Taiwanese drums change, as well? Now, tell me, what is racist about that?

Last thing I'm going to mention, your accusation just struck me as particularly weird because, for something to be racist, there does have to be a smidge of racial something to motivate it. I know me listing all my Japan-loving credentials doesn't automatically let me off the hook, but let's put it this way: I spent a formative chunk of my life living in Japan. I speak Japanese. A lot of my friends are Japanese. And I'm actually taking time away from planning a trip to Japan right now to deal with this... You get the point, I hope. If I had actually said what you interpreted my post to mean, then sure, maybe racism would have been something to bring up. If you completely disagree about the quality of stencil kits and think their reputation is all just a racist myth, then... I don't know what to tell you, man.

Racism is a real thing. I get that. Having an itchy trigger finger when it comes to calling things "racist," though, really doesn't help anything. It's like branding anyone who mentions that they like German-made Sonor kits a Neo-Nazi...
Again, I think you're getting a bit too fired up about this. I'm simply saying that around WWII, a lot of America was pretty racist toward the Japanese. Just a general statement that has truth behind it. Just like a lot of America is pretty racist toward Muslims today. Just open up a comments box on a new story to see proof of that. I'm not attacking you AT ALL.
Uh huh. If you'd only said that in the first place or when I gave you an opportunity to clarify, I wouldn't have felt the need to respond at length. But whatever. I'm happy to drop this.

(Also, Islam isn't a race... ;) )
 

712drummer

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shilohjim said:
Pearl was innovative in many ways. The first phenolic shell, the first SEAMLESS acrylic shell, first company to put nylon bushings in their stands, The free floating snare system, Vari-pitch drums, the first DECENT drum rack (with square tubing).
I think the Reference series was an innovation too. The idea of changing shell construction slightly with each drum size in a gradual way/. More and more birch with smaller drums and increase mahogany with larger drums in an incremental way.
Didn't they also really come up with the modern spurs too. Then there is the interchangeable cams in the original Pearl Eliminators pedals.
 

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dogmanaut - To parse drum content, AFAIK Pearl President was the first pro quality MIJ drum to be (barely) presented to the western market. We missed it in the barrage of lauan budget drums and I'm confident that, apart from hearsay, the vast majority of US drummers from that time period still have no idea Pearl made anything worth a damn before 1977, let alone anything original. Almost nobody realizes that Pearl made the best shells of the 60s. I invite them to investigate for themselves.

Successful drum makers are usually more imitation than innovation and that has been the case for Pearl, but they have done their share of inventing too. By comparison, Gretsch was extremely innovative up until about 1960, then turned into an oldies act. Ludwig and Slingerland were cutting edge in their day too. I suppose some would argue that there isn't much edge left to cut these days and that innovation is mainly about cutting costs, hip design and marketing.
 

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devinw said:
I was just differentiating between the ,more local conversations in the past page or so and the actual OT, sometimes things stray.

You said "Just musing on this the other day -- "made in Japan" used to pretty much mean something was crap, a cheap knockoff". I'm not calling you racist at all, but that NOTION *IS* racist and it's mostly unfounded. Get offended if you want, but it's true. A lot of s*** about American history is racist (treatment of Native Americans for $800, Trebeck!). I'm a white man and I'm comfortable saying that. It's OK. We can only heal things by talking about the truth.
I was clearly referring to drums and only drums, hence listing a bunch of MIJ stencil brands in the next phrase after the bit you quoted. Likewise, I was clearly referring to a specific period of Japanese drum making, which should have been obvious -- at least to about 95% of the people on this forum -- just based on the brand names I referenced. And I'm sorry, but those largely were garbage -- by design. The million and half different brands of Luan stencil kits were never meant to compete directly with the Ludwigs and Slingerlands and Leedys of the world. They were meant to be cheap so they could exploit (using that verb in a completely neutral sense) a very specific market, namely all the people who couldn't afford top-dollar stuff. That isn't racism by any stretch. That's just the history of drum manufacturing.

Serious question: were there any high-quality MIJ drums prior to late '60s/early '70s stuff like the Pearl Presidents? I'm personally not aware of any.
Anyway, yeah, I do take issue with your representation of my original post when you say that "the idea that Japanese products are inferior and shoddy is really racist," and then you go on to talk about cars and electronics, etc. That's all a far cry from what my post said. In fact, it's kind of completely missing the point I was making in the first place: that the association with MIJ stuff used to be (past tense) that it was garbage, and now that's clearly changed; so when will the negative association a lot of people seem to have with Chinese/Taiwanese drums change, as well? Now, tell me, what is racist about that?

Last thing I'm going to mention, your accusation just struck me as particularly weird because, for something to be racist, there does have to be a smidge of racial something to motivate it. I know me listing all my Japan-loving credentials doesn't automatically let me off the hook, but let's put it this way: I spent a formative chunk of my life living in Japan. I speak Japanese. A lot of my friends are Japanese. And I'm actually taking time away from planning a trip to Japan right now to deal with this... You get the point, I hope. If I had actually said what you interpreted my post to mean, then sure, maybe racism would have been something to bring up. If you completely disagree about the quality of stencil kits and think their reputation is all just a racist myth, then... I don't know what to tell you, man.

Racism is a real thing. I get that. Having an itchy trigger finger when it comes to calling things "racist," though, really doesn't help anything. It's like branding anyone who mentions that they like German-made Sonor kits a Neo-Nazi...
Again, I think you're getting a bit too fired up about this. I'm simply saying that around WWII, a lot of America was pretty racist toward the Japanese. Just a general statement that has truth behind it. Just like a lot of America is pretty racist toward Muslims today. Just open up a comments box on a new story to see proof of that. I'm not attacking you AT ALL.





They were anti-imperialistic Japanese.... Not racists. At that time they were justified in how they felt.
 

BennyK

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devinw said:
I don't genuflect to the steaming heap of bumper sticker wisdom masquerading as the truth these days .

... but you are correct about Vegas and Gremlins .
Well, we live in a "post truth", and "alternative facts" world, so you definitely have to be careful... ;)
" We " don't live there .

I gotta mind of my own . Being careful has never been my strongest trait .

Don't inflict the sins of your fathers on me or mine .
 

musiqman

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Imo.

It started when Sakae started making drums for Yamaha and people oustide Japan/Asia stated noticing how good the quality was comparing to the stencil sets they where used to see.

Because that quality was very high, because Yamaha wanted to stand out, something they still stand for. They may not be flashy for some, but the quality is 99% of the time bar none. And it started like that in 1967.
 

studrum

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JoePasko2002 said:
This is cool, don't you think ?


chinesedrums.JPG

chinesedrums1.JPG
This is VERY cool, and I appreciate other cultures doing THEIR own thing, not copying somebody else to make a buck. I'd gladly pay good money to see concerts like that, buy recordings, etc. I've got a Kodo (Korean?) CD, and it is a dramatic thing of beauty.
 

TDM

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Monty said:
Got the tub o' popcorn good and hot!
Well yes, but there is also a lot of really interesting discussion going on in this thread. I've been particularly interested in the bits on post World War II Japan and how Japan's manufacturing rebuilt and changed. Another tidbit from this thread that caused me to ponder is the notion that shipping and labor rates may not remain favorable for building goods in China and Taiwan. When this happens, the manufacturing economy as we now know it may, of necessity, completely change. Irony though it may be, this may be the actual factor that "brings manufacturing back to America" and brings manufacturing back to other countries. Interesting and useful discussion, in my opinion.
 


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