Can You Do a 3 or 4 Stroke ROLL?

JDA

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if I had to guess (and it is the internet..) Philly Joe is attempting to hint at it (the 3..) here->


with the backwards hand motion;
he does a similar section in every solo on youtube from any year 60s 70s 80s (check the Sun Ra live Germany)


when his hands move circular backward motion
 
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multijd

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if I had to guess (and it is the internet..) Philly Joe is attempting to hint at it (the 3..) here->


with the backwards hand motion;
he does a similar section in every solo on youtube from any year 60s 70s 80s (check the Sun Ra live Germany)


when his hands move circular backward motion
You could be right Joe! I never thought of looking to Philly but he is the consummate rudimentalist. An application I can see is that triple strokes allow you to play a sextuplet roll with 1/8th note hand to hand division. So your hands are moving 1&2& etc and your getting sextuplets RRR-LLL-RRR-LLL. I was just working with it a little on the set and when I listen back I can hear the application.
 

JDA

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same deal here again)


when he backwards rolls his hands..
~
the other drummers you may look into besides Roy Burns is I might wager Ed Shaugnessy
you'd have to go back thru history of their solos. I have a hunch on those two..
 
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Ian S

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Love Philly Joe.. Hot buttered dinner rolls for sure.

But now curious, when I hear the word "Open", I think of words like "available", "space" and "exposure".. room to breathe, and even 'at your discretion'. When I hear "Closed" I think of "unavailable", "locked", "tightened up", "protected", "barricaded", and not subject to discretionary choice.

So, no matter the interpretations of meaning, what's strange to me is why the words "open" and "closed" were chosen.. what's open about an open roll, and what's closed about a closed one? So it's no wonder the terms ended up so subjectively interpreted, open and closed don't seem like the most intuitive descriptions of a particular type of roll.

Sorry if this is getting a bit off topic, but it seems the conversation evolved in this direction and it made me really think about the terminology used.
 

multijd

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Love Philly Joe.. Hot buttered dinner rolls for sure.

But now curious, when I hear the word "Open", I think of words like "available", "space" and "exposure".. room to breathe, and even 'at your discretion'. When I hear "Closed" I think of "unavailable", "locked", "tightened up", "protected", "barricaded", and not subject to discretionary choice.

So, no matter the interpretations of meaning, what's strange to me is why the words "open" and "closed" were chosen.. what's open about an open roll, and what's closed about a closed one? So it's no wonder the terms ended up so subjectively interpreted, open and closed don't seem like the most intuitive descriptions of a particular type of roll.

Sorry if this is getting a bit off topic, but it seems the conversation evolved in this direction and it made me really think about the terminology used.
Maybe the closed is for when you are “closed inside” and the open for when you are “out in the open”. If we remember that rolls are primarily a long tone sound, then outdoors, more space in the roll helps it to carry and because of the environment still sounds connected and continuous. Indoors we need to close the roll down so it doesn’t sound like rapid gunshots. Of course this is all contingent upon the sound you want to achieve.
 

Ian S

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Well, sorry guys.. I should've left well enough alone.

Alright I've got my blindfold on, if you've got the kool-aid balloons, launch away when ready. I've been soaked before, I'll be soaked again. :occasion9:
 

Hop

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... But now curious, when I hear the word "Open", I think of words like "available", "space" and "exposure".. room to breathe, and even 'at your discretion'. When I hear "Closed" I think of "unavailable", "locked", "tightened up", "protected", "barricaded", and not subject to discretionary choice.

So, no matter the interpretations of meaning, what's strange to me is why the words "open" and "closed" were chosen.. what's open about an open roll, and what's closed about a closed one? So it's no wonder the terms ended up so subjectively interpreted, open and closed don't seem like the most intuitive descriptions of a particular type of roll.

Sorry if this is getting a bit off topic, but it seems the conversation evolved in this direction and it made me really think about the terminology used.
Without dipping too far into the etymology weeds, I think they are fair words for the usage compared to the others that are associated with what we're trying to describe. I'd say the words were chosen to convey the sense of relative space between what was being played [but truth be told I wasn't there when the descriptors were selected ;-) ]. Was there some great formal agreement on the words, probably not, but there had to be some kind of consensus amongst the drumming leaders/teachers as to the meaning. With one word you can easily define what takes many words to describe. I'll try to define as concisely as possible; Open: one attack, one rebound. Closed; one attack, multiple rebounds. Of course, in this shorthand description I'm already assuming you have a fair amount of subject knowledge, and I would certainly have to adjust my definition and provide more details for the initiate/neophyte (vs. the veteran/professional).

I think the other thing the words help convey, beyond quantity, is a type of quality. Now, to be fair I do think a written description is going to fall short of what a demonstration can provide. I've associated the Geo Stone definition of a 'scratch roll' with the term 'press roll' and even a 'buzz roll.' A press roll description, to me, could easily dip into that 'scratch roll' territory and like the 'buzz'... I can press and buzz all day long but is it true to the orchestral meaning of a closed roll?

In a field where we do have some perfect descriptors/words for what we're playing (i.e. paradiddle, flam, etc...), I guess it would have been nice if they could have found an onomatopoeia for open/closed rolls!!!
 

Ian S

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In a field where we do have some perfect descriptors/words for what we're playing (i.e. paradiddle, flam, etc...), I guess it would have been nice if they could have found an onomatopoeia for open/closed rolls!!!
Thanks Hop, you make several good points. Your post was nice to wake up to. =)
 
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toddbishop

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But now curious, when I hear the word "Open", I think of words like "available", "space" and "exposure".. room to breathe, and even 'at your discretion'. When I hear "Closed" I think of "unavailable", "locked", "tightened up", "protected", "barricaded", and not subject to discretionary choice.

So, no matter the interpretations of meaning, what's strange to me is why the words "open" and "closed" were chosen.. what's open about an open roll, and what's closed about a closed one? So it's no wonder the terms ended up so subjectively interpreted, open and closed don't seem like the most intuitive descriptions of a particular type of roll.
I guess I assumed it referred to the amount of space between notes. The terms aren't subjective, they're just used differently in different communities of drummers. Open/closed used to just mean slow/fast, and referred to most or all rudiments. By the 80s, when I was a young student, everyone I was around used them only in reference to types of rolls/ruffs/drags-- open for double strokes (with all notes played in rhythm), closed for multiple-bounce strokes (the stroke is in rhythm, the bounces are not).

PAS calls the triple-stroke roll a multiple-bounce rudiment, but I don't agree with that-- all of the notes are played in rhythm. It's not a conventional multiple-bounce stroke.
 

Ian S

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Thanks everyone, for the impromptu drum lesson.

I guess I assumed it referred to the amount of space between notes. The terms aren't subjective, they're just used differently in different communities of drummers. Open/closed used to just mean slow/fast, and referred to most or all rudiments. By the 80s, when I was a young student, everyone I was around used them only in reference to types of rolls/ruffs/drags-- open for double strokes (with all notes played in rhythm), closed for multiple-bounce strokes (the stroke is in rhythm, the bounces are not).

PAS calls the triple-stroke roll a multiple-bounce rudiment, but I don't agree with that-- all of the notes are played in rhythm. It's not a conventional multiple-bounce stroke.
Thank you, Todd. That makes a lot of sense, I totally see why they would call them open and closed.


@JDA - lovely example, and I'm proud to say I can now confidently identify those as 3, 4, 5 and 6 stroke Open Rolls. :-D
 


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