Can you name a popular and commercially successful player who isn't a highly talented player?

fratzog lover

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2019
Messages
8
Reaction score
2
That’s funny. Are you from there? I’m not as old as them. I just know they dominated the SJ scene back in the day.

My “big brother” of sorts was Chris Branco, drummer for Dean Davidson’s Blackeyed Susan. I met him as a kid at Sunset Music when he worked there. As we got older we used to break each other’s balls about each other’s taste in music as it’s quite opposite in taste.

I did play Bonnie’s in the early 90’s a good amount.

What about you?
This was the early 80's. The Pennant, Zodiac Club in Gloucester, Dr. Jekylls, The Menagerie in Pennsauken. I didn't own a drum set until 1987. I vaguely remember the car crash, he was in his Firebird going to tell his girlfriend about the record contract I seem to remember. I met Chris Branco, but I cant remember where. I sure wouldn't put Fred in the lack of talent column.
 

dsop

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2014
Messages
101
Reaction score
51
Location
Los Angeles, CA
Do you honestly think that any Hall of Fame athlete really worked 200 times harder than any other professional?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. However, with sports, someone's physical attributes will play a larger part than it would with a flutist or cello player. And it's not just how much someone practices. It's how they practice and the support system they have. Talent is a myth.

 

dcrigger

DFO Master
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
5,060
Reaction score
1,095
Location
California
We certainly disagree on this , you suggest I haven’t listened to the right guys . His independence alone is astounding to me .
We may be disagreeing - but I'm sorry, no offense but you're kind of making my point.

Again Peart is a great player and has served Rush incredibly well... but in any technical way astounding?? Compared to the rest of the field? I mean, believe what you want. But seriously, branch out your listening and you will likely see (and hear) this differently. For examples, if you find Peart's independence astounding, check out Trilok Guru, or Terry Bozzio (his solo works or the Bozzio, Levin & Stevens albums for instance), your head will explode.

There is SO much music out there - if you listen to more stuff (particularly things that likely inspired a lot of Rush's music), don't be surprised if you come to hear just how derivative so much of Rush's music is.
 

dale w miller

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2016
Messages
385
Reaction score
176
Location
Ocean, NJ
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. However, with sports, someone's physical attributes will play a larger part than it would with a flutist or cello player. And it's not just how much someone practices. It's how they practice and the support system they have. Talent is a myth.

This is going to be a no-win argument so I will bow out before personal attacks come into play here.
 

Tanabata

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2016
Messages
195
Reaction score
92
Location
NY
I can think of a guy who's initials fit with DrumForum...

...but on the positive side, I'd like to say that, every time I happen upon anything by Blondie, live or in the studio, I'm always blown away by how truly good Clem Burke is. Seriously.
 

ThomFloor

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2017
Messages
449
Reaction score
153
There is SO much music out there - if you listen to more stuff (particularly things that likely inspired a lot of Rush's music), don't be surprised if you come to hear just how derivative so much of Rush's music is.
So what is Rush 'derivative' from, in particular? I mean Neil was a Keith Moon/Who fan, and they were large Cream and Yes fans ....like a zillion other artists of the day. But Rush sound like none of them. What likely inspired them? The are not just another 'power trio' ala James Gang, Grand Funk,....
 

Tornado

Very well Known Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2017
Messages
1,149
Reaction score
580
Location
Dallas
Neil was a hero of mine. The thing about his playing is that it's so accessible. I think that's why so many young players like myself latched on to him. He has great ability, but he always kept it straightforward enough for even non-drummers to understand what was going on. Having said that, he's just not in the same class as guys like Vinny and Bozio. That's not controversial at all to say.
 

dcrigger

DFO Master
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
5,060
Reaction score
1,095
Location
California
So what is Rush 'derivative' from, in particular? I mean Neil was a Keith Moon/Who fan, and they were large Cream and Yes fans ....like a zillion other artists of the day. But Rush sound like none of them. What likely inspired them? The are not just another 'power trio' ala James Gang, Grand Funk,....
Regarding Rush and the use of the term...derivative, I am not saying that the band is not unique - that it is some copy of other bands, hardly distinguishable from them or anything like that. I'm not saying that at all... the band has very unique sound ad has created a hugely respectable body of work.

I LITERALLY have zero complaints about Rush at all. I've always really liked Rush.

My comments are aimed squarely at some Rush fans - particularly in this case, Neil Peart fan drummers. And even that I completely support - again it's an incredible body of work and if it has been a player's initial source of inspiration and particularly their introduction to music beyond the Top 40esque 3-5 minute song convention... wonderful!!!

Complex arrangements with lots of accents and breaks and mood swings and tempo changes, odd meters, complicated song structures... Rush gets huge credit IMO for working them into a hard rock scenario with such cohesion and identifiable personality. BUT... they were not pioneers of ANY of those things.

They "derived" those elements from many, many sources and worked them into the Rush "stew". Again good for them - that's what most artists do. Again, no complaints.

Again except to those that insist that all of that "sprung from them" - that all of those "incredible things" started with Rush,

.... but they didn't.

By 1976's 2112 - Rush was still playing almost entirely in 4/4. There was lots of 1/8th note accent syncopations, but the long form compositions were long, but quite rudimentary... shorter sections just strung together... a pale shadow of what would come by Moving Pictures. 1977's "A Farewell To Kings" saw, I believe, the first odd meter work, but still for them, very developmental and rudimentary... and as my list will show... not even remotely revolutionary... not in 1977!!!

So let's talk odd meters, extended compositions, complex arrangements... every single one of these recordings contain music that includes one or more of those three elements and requires far more from their drummers than the music of "2112" and "A Farewell To King" - many of them... light years more. And they were all released by 1976 (most by 1973!!! - 4 years prior to 2112)...

In no particular order - off the top of my head -

Frank Zappa - Roxy and Elsewhere, Overnite Sensation, Grand Wazoo, etc.
Billy Cobham - Spectrum
Most everything by King Crimson
Mahavishnu - Birds Of Fire, Between Nothingness and Eternity, Apocalypse, Visions of the Emerald Beyond
Tony Williams - Believe It and Million Dollar Legs
Tom Scott and LA Express (John Guerin)
Emerson Lake and Palmer - Tarkus, etc,
Chicago 1, II and III.
Blood, Sweat and Tears III
Larry Coryell and the Eleventh House.
Return To Forever - Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy, No Mystery and Romantic Warrior
Dom Ellis - At Fillmore, Tears of Joy, Connection, Soaring.

Neil Peart - A wonderful inspiring player? Absolutely - with you 100%

Neil Peart - Ultimate master of odd time playing, independence and the most complicated music ever? Sorry... but again, anyone believing this seriously needs to listen to more music.

So all that said - I have to make perfectly clear - for everyone about to flame because I'm hating on Neil Peart. I think Neil Peart sounds great - and what he's accomplished is incredible. No hate from me towards him or his playing... at all.
 

ThomFloor

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2017
Messages
449
Reaction score
153
wow, comprhensive post. For the record, my post was not contesting you. My question on Rush's music was simply wonderment on what was derivative.
I appreciate Neil Peart and Rush but am not a huge fan, mostly listened to them only in my youth.
I'd see 2112 as a definite departure for them from a certain straighter music form, and how that may have had some roots in other things of the time - extended concept albums by Yes, Zappa, ELP. To me the remarkable thing is what they are doing with only 3 people.
Odd meters - people make a big deal of this, but I always doubt a band or musician sits down and says "OK lets do this part in 7/8 because....". I think odd meters just play naturally from people who created a certain piece.
 

dcrigger

DFO Master
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
5,060
Reaction score
1,095
Location
California
wow, comprhensive post. For the record, my post was not contesting you. My question on Rush's music was simply wonderment on what was derivative.
I appreciate Neil Peart and Rush but am not a huge fan, mostly listened to them only in my youth.
I'd see 2112 as a definite departure for them from a certain straighter music form, and how that may have had some roots in other things of the time - extended concept albums by Yes, Zappa, ELP. To me the remarkable thing is what they are doing with only 3 people.
Odd meters - people make a big deal of this, but I always doubt a band or musician sits down and says "OK lets do this part in 7/8 because....". I think odd meters just play naturally from people who created a certain piece.
I'm sorry if that came off as being right back at you. Your question was sort of launching off point for a long put off post addressing far more posts than just yours. :)

With odd meters, I can split the difference with what your saying... in that I know them to be quite natural and organic, but I think few explore them without a conscious effort to do so. Odd meter is still rare enough in our western world, that the average player will have way too little exposure to them for them to just develop from within - again without a little conscious effort. "That's cool...What is that?" "Where can I hear more?" "I think I'll experimenting with that"... Nothing wrong with that process IMO - but I would think it rarely just happens per se.
 

BennyK

DFO Master
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
13,973
Reaction score
976
There's nothing wrong with commercial success and popularity and there's nothing wrong with technical proficiency and achievement either .

There's nothing wrong with preferring one over the other .

There is something wrong with the animosity that arises from musicians who are unwilling to try and accept their lot in life .
 
Last edited:

dsop

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2014
Messages
101
Reaction score
51
Location
Los Angeles, CA
I was a massive fan of Neil Peart's playing and sound up through Rush's record "Signals". After that, things changed and I no longer listened to them. My favorite record of theirs is still "A Farewell to Kings".
I think Neil was really affected by his original appearance/performance with the Buddy Rich Memorial concert. Everyone was shocked at how bad his performance was, and he never recovered fully. That led to his studying with Freddy Gruber and Peter Erskine as he tried to "re-invent" himself.
 

equipmentdork

DFO Veteran
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
1,559
Reaction score
213
Location
NJ
...but on the positive side, I'd like to say that, every time I happen upon anything by Blondie, live or in the studio, I'm always blown away by how truly good Clem Burke is. Seriously.
I saw Clem close up at a small house concert, not even through a PA, and his skills just floored everyone there. Everyone. He told me that he was initially the bass drummer in a marching band and that bulit up immense power in his arms. It's terrifying to watch him.


Dan
 

Beatnik

Johnson
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Messages
3,716
Reaction score
183
Location
Moved on
Sad that a person was so affected by what others said they would feel the need to change. Rush doesn't swing and are also not a fusion band, they were just a rock trio that did things a little different.
 

Houndog

Very well Known Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
1,189
Reaction score
236
Location
Oklahoma City
I would not put Neil in the great technician category ,clearly Vinnie and Bozzio are miles ahead , but to say he isn't a technical drummer is a bit absurd . Flip it around and compare him to the other classic rock guys .....
His Independence astounds me because I struggle so hard to do it .
 

Carlos McSnurf

DFO Veteran
Joined
Apr 19, 2013
Messages
1,799
Reaction score
76
Location
Finland
1. Drummer from Pavement comes to mind. Bandmate were playing tambourine on gigs to keep his time.
2. I cannot listen to Let Me Come Over album by Buffalo Tom. Drumming there is so sloppy that annoys me. Can't focus on any song overall because of the rhythm.
 


Top