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Cantaloupe Island ?

michaelg

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Great tune. For those who know and have played it perhaps you can help me with this.

Its a 16 bar structure (in F I think)
The melody starts on bar one and the chord sequence eventually cycles back to the same chord on bars 13,14,15,16.

When a solo is being played over the structure I sometimes start to feel the beginning of the cycle on bar 13 as opposed to 1.
Is this wrong to feel the tune this way for the purposes of performing it ?
 

multijd

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Wow. You’ve nailed jazz form 101 here. This is what makes modal forms so difficult. The simplest solution is to sing the song twice through while playing the drums. You will here that there is a 4 bar extension. As you improvise on the tune (play it with others) keep singing it and be sure to include that 4 bar extension. If you can’t sing the song work on that first.

Another thought is that it’s not totally desirable to play “the form” too rigidly. Play over the bar or through sections, don’t change the groove or accent downbeats. Let the form happen while you’re playing but listen to it and try to anticipate when the changes will occur. Learn the sound and feel of it close.

If you read you can use a chart and memorize the visual aspect. After a while of using the chart put it away but try to keep seeing it. Eventually convert the seeing to feeling.
 

JDA

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great observation advice always from MultiJD
Let's listen to it with the wacky Tony Williams on the/ drums.
I've play it often (see what I did there..)


it's almost hearing a Blues.
8/4/4/
 

michaelg

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Wow. You’ve nailed jazz form 101 here. This is what makes modal forms so difficult. The simplest solution is to sing the song twice through while playing the drums. You will here that there is a 4 bar extension. As you improvise on the tune (play it with others) keep singing it and be sure to include that 4 bar extension. If you can’t sing the song work on that first.

Another thought is that it’s not totally desirable to play “the form” too rigidly. Play over the bar or through sections, don’t change the groove or accent downbeats. Let the form happen while you’re playing but listen to it and try to anticipate when the changes will occur. Learn the sound and feel of it close.

If you read you can use a chart and memorize the visual aspect. After a while of using the chart put it away but try to keep seeing it. Eventually convert the seeing to feeling.
What's the definition of a 4 bar extension ? I can hear it, but I'm not 100% I know what you mean. Thanks for your advice.
 

JDA

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so call it a 16-bar blues if you have to)
coz seems what it is; nothing changes deviates from that form
8/4/4/
after that second 4/ Tony hits the rim shot)
 

Matched Gripper

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Great tune. For those who know and have played it perhaps you can help me with this.

Its a 16 bar structure (in F I think)
The melody starts on bar one and the chord sequence eventually cycles back to the same chord on bars 13,14,15,16.

When a solo is being played over the structure I sometimes start to feel the beginning of the cycle on bar 13 as opposed to 1.
Is this wrong to feel the tune this way for the purposes of performing it ?
There’s a 4 bar intro, and the melody starts on 4 of bar 4. That 4 bar intro is part of the repeating 16 bar form. Maybe that’s what’s throwing you off.
 

JDA

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the melody is just delayed Don't concern yourself/ with that
/this is a rhythm song/ like a work song (I just made that up..
more a rhythm song than a melody song
Listen to the Rhythm ; melody is just delayed;
shouldn't be a concern or throw you into tangential
 

michaelg

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This is the version I was checking out.
Listening to Pats great solo I eventually get lost till I hear the obvious harmonic changes.

 

JDA

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ok now pick another one ; )
except stay with the Root Recording to simplify
 

michaelg

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Wow. You’ve nailed jazz form 101 here. This is what makes modal forms so difficult. The simplest solution is to sing the song twice through while playing the drums. You will here that there is a 4 bar extension. As you improvise on the tune (play it with others) keep singing it and be sure to include that 4 bar extension. If you can’t sing the song work on that first.

Another thought is that it’s not totally desirable to play “the form” too rigidly. Play over the bar or through sections, don’t change the groove or accent downbeats. Let the form happen while you’re playing but listen to it and try to anticipate when the changes will occur. Learn the sound and feel of it close.

If you read you can use a chart and memorize the visual aspect. After a while of using the chart put it away but try to keep seeing it. Eventually convert the seeing to feeling.

Thanks for the advice. I can sing and play thru the form now and am starting to feel it.
The Herbie classic blue note version is pretty easy to follow as the soloists all seem to start a new phrase on bar one, five or nine.
Metheny above seems to be able to start a phrase just about anywhere in the form and this can easily make me lost as Its hard not to concentrate intently to just his solo.

Would I be correct in saying that if a someone's solo is making me lose the form, then I should not listen to them that intently until I am more secure in the form ?

Does that make sense ?
 

Seb77

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Listen to everybody, but don't rely on them. That applies to all kinds of situations in life;)

With modern jazz, form is often deliberately clouded, or not marked clearly - but it's there. Something like a fill/crash on one might help some musicians that are insecure about the form, but it doesn't always help the music.
 

Swissward Flamtacles

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Same "problem" with "the chicken".
So What is another typical tune where one player can mess up the form easily. Try to be right but don't insist on it. :)
 

toddbishop

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You don't want to feel the top of the form in the wrong place-- you could give yourself a mental verbal cue, like TAG when you're playing a tag that sounds like the top of the form, and TOP when you get to the real top. Like on an AABA you might want to think LAST A on the last A and TOP when you get to the top. A lot of people get lost in the As. Until you know the tune and don't have to do that any more.
 

DrumPhil

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You don't want to feel the top of the form in the wrong place-- you could give yourself a mental verbal cue, like TAG when you're playing a tag that sounds like the top of the form, and TOP when you get to the real top. Like on an AABA you might want to think LAST A on the last A and TOP when you get to the top. A lot of people get lost in the As. Until you know the tune and don't have to do that any more.

This is very common and can happen to any musician, not just a drummer. Since I am typically playing with amateur and semi-pro musicians, I (the drummer) will take upon myself the unspoken responsibility to regularly drop clues to remind the rest of the band where we are in the form. I call them "gathering points". When it feels like one or more players have lost track of beat one, I will use some kind of obvious accent to help everyone find it again. Sometimes I'll play an appropriate fill at the end of a section and come out with a big snare accent on beat two. Even though it's on two instead of one, it lets everyone know without a doubt where the count is.

In a similar way we can use fills and accents to show where the form changes sections (A, B, etc.) or goes back to the top. There can be disagreement between players about where it is, but if the rhythm section all gets back together confidently, any reasonable frontline player/soloist should recognize that it is going to be easier for everyone (and better for the music) if they find a way back to join the rhythm section, rather than insist that they are right and make everyone else find them. Of course, if there is general confusion, I'm usually going to try to line up with the singer/frontline player anyway, and bring the rest of the rhythm section into place with us. So hopefully the soloist doesn't feel left out in the cold.

Anyway, during solos it is not uncommon for anyone to lose track of the form. The drummer is in a strong position to help everyone come together again, and the more we can do that in a musical way the better the band sounds to the audience.
 

JimmyM

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How do you lose track in Cantaloupe Island? It’s such a short head that repeats identically all the way through. Maybe I am better at keeping my place than others, but it seems pretty easy to me.

I will, however, say that in all the playing out I’ve done on drums in the 9 months I restarted after a life of being a bassist and guitarist, I have never dropped a beat or turned one around, so maybe I AM exceptional ;)
 


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