Carl Palmer and the 50 Worst Acts in Music History

5 Style

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Your 100% spot on with your response. Really a dumb post. All subjective and personal preference. The mere fact that this guy sat around and concocted this list shows he’s got too much time on his hands. He should invest that time practicing his rudiments instead. My hats off to anyone on his list, they made it and earned their money.
I feel that anyone who put their art out in the public sphere opens themselves up to critical analysis of the work. The fact that someone who's made a lot of money doing what they do doesn't in any way influence me to like it.... or even to respect what they do. I have more respect for folks who strike me as following their creative muse rather than in producing a product that that's designed to do well in the marketplace...
 
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dcrigger

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A list of 50 acts the author personally didn't like or thought would make him/her appear cool for disliking them vs. the collective millions of people that enjoyed their work, went to their concerts and bought their music. With all the while, the author sitting in the cheap seats having likely created nothing, putting no real skin in the game except creating snobby little lists like this. Oooo so cool....


Bringing me back to...

*** yawn ***
 

dcrigger

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I feel that anyone who put their art out in the public sphere opens themselves up to critical analysis of the work. The fact that someone who's made a lot of money doing what they do doesn't in any way influence me to like it.... or even to respect what they do. I have more respect for folks who strike me as following their creative muse rather than in producing a product that that's designed to do well in the market place...
But you seem to be assuming that any of these artists crafted their music in order specifically to be successful.

Just because you may or not appreciate a piece of art or now - how do imagine you have any real insight to whether or not someone is "following their creative muse" or not?

I'm not saying some artists don't look to the marketplace as their guiding light. But the fact of the matter is, in my experience, few are even remotely versatile and capable of doing that successfully. Most artists of all genres that I've worked with or been around were all pursuing the art they would be pursuing whether they were successful or not. If that isn't following their creative muse, I don't know what is.

And of course I'm talking about the actual artists and creators - not us whore-like studio player types that will do anything for anyone for money. :)
 

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But you seem to be assuming that any of these artists crafted their music in order specifically to be successful.

Just because you may or not appreciate a piece of art or now - how do imagine you have any real insight to whether or not someone is "following their creative muse" or not?

I'm not saying some artists don't look to the marketplace as their guiding light. But the fact of the matter is, in my experience, few are even remotely versatile and capable of doing that successfully. Most artists of all genres that I've worked with or been around were all pursuing the art they would be pursuing whether they were successful or not. If that isn't following their creative muse, I don't know what is.

And of course I'm talking about the actual artists and creators - not us whore-like studio player types that will do anything for anyone for money. :)
No, I'm not exactly saying that, I'm reacting to question of "how can you criticize anyone who's so successful?" I'm saying that to me financial success doesn't matter at all to me when I judge either an artist's work or even to even have respect for what they do. Certain things that t I hear come across to me as the sound of folks chasing the almighty dollar. I could be wrong about that, but if it comes across that way to me, I'm generally not going to be very interested in it. I don't necessarily enjoy everything that strikes me as "art for art's sake," but I respect folks who seem to have taken that path, even if I don't quite connect to their art. I understand the allure of money, I wish that I had more of it, but I'm glad that there are artists who are happy to make enough to get by but still aren't striving for that next rung to the point where they're willing to compromise what they do to get it. I happen to think that the world would be a far better place if more people were more motivated by the love of their art or craft and less motivated by the prospect of getting rich with it...

I'll add that though I'm not a fan of anything on this list, there are several artists here who don't strike me as being so much in it for the money. They seem to approach it more from an artistic and not necessarily commercial perspective...
 
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exliontamer

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A lot of popular music journalism has defined itself partially on its rejection of prog. The best way to not get published in some venues is to confess a taste for anything close to prog. Lester Bangs established an essential definition of rock music early on, and people such as Dave Marsh and Jimmy Guterman followed it: generally, the biases tend toward American, working class (or the author's vision of what working class should look like), relatively structurally simple, and dominated by a single auteur (so solo artists over bands). Obviously, prog in the 70s didn't fit this paradigm.

Listen to what you like. I like Carl's playing. I like a lot of ELP. I can understand why some people don't. But I much prefer having an eclectic taste in music to closing off entire genres or sub-genres because I'm not supposed to like Yes if I like Sonic Youth.
This is a very astute response. I've worked at record stores part time since I was 18, and have definitely noticed this attitude slowly diminishing, particularly with younger people. People 30 and up still tend to be the worst and still seem to be the most likely to hold onto the cartoony aspects of taste as identity. Sometimes at the store if I get a hankering to listen to "Selling England By The Pound" or "Relayer"(also want to throw in how under appreciated I think Drama is), I just wait for the bile to come out with certain people. Screw 'em. Prog rules and the idea of authenticity in music is a suspect idea at best. Ex: in Genesis case how is a bunch of educated private school kids with no life experience singing about Greek mythology any more pretentious than a trust fund kid who grew up on a golf course donating their khakis, moving to Nashville, dressing up like it's the dust bowl, and writing songs about living in a pickup truck?
 

snappy

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I have no problem with a list,
it's an opinion,
which is an idea.
Someone once said,
"Men love to pick apart ideas.
Women love to pick apart Men".
 

exliontamer

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A list of 50 acts the author personally didn't like or thought would make him/her appear cool for disliking them vs. the collective millions of people that enjoyed their work, went to their concerts and bought their music. With all the while, the author sitting in the cheap seats having likely created nothing, putting no real skin in the game except creating snobby little lists like this. Oooo so cool....


Bringing me back to...

*** yawn ***
I know his politics can be a point of contention(rightfully so in my view), the pronouns should be changed, but I still think this carries serious weight.
Teddy Roosevelt - The Man In The Arena
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."

Lists like this are at best, vapid fun and at worst, influence people to feel ashamed and guilty about things they might otherwise enjoy. It's easy to make a positive statement about every artist on this list. I get absolutely nothing out of Insane Clown Posse, but I have friends who grew up in small towns feeling weird and ostracized and that group gave them a lot of confidence and comfort at a very difficult time in their lives. Same with my aunt and her enjoyment of Kenny G and Michael Bolton. She gets off of work, puts it on, and is transported somewhere pleasant because of it. I feel very comfortable saying that those artists are doing what they like and a lot of people are getting real joy in their lives because of it.
 
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wflkurt

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Maybe I'm the minority but I loved ASIA. I'm sure that when the guys got together and wrote songs they may have had a focus on writing something that would be mainstream but I think the success of that first album really took those guys by surprise. I think by the third album they were getting pressure from the record company to crank out more hits but I still like that album. I think John Wetton had an awesome voice and I loved the keyboards that Geoff Downes put down. They were a great songwriting team I think.

Who in the heck comes up with this list crap anyway? You would put musicians like ELP even on a list with Vanilla Ice? And Vanilla Ice was ranked better? That's some crack pot smoking stuff right there.
 

exliontamer

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Maybe I'm the minority but I loved ASIA. I'm sure that when the guys got together and wrote songs they may have had a focus on writing something that would be mainstream but I think the success of that first album really took those guys by surprise. I think by the third album they were getting pressure from the record company to crank out more hits but I still like that album. I think John Wetton had an awesome voice and I loved the keyboards that Geoff Downes put down. They were a great songwriting team I think.

Who in the heck comes up with this list crap anyway? You would put musicians like ELP even on a list with Vanilla Ice? And Vanilla Ice was ranked better? That's some crack pot smoking stuff right there.
John Wetton's voice rules! It's somehow masculine and tender. Like a T-Rex with a thorn in it's foot. I was listening to Red the other day thinking the same.
 

mydadisjr

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Pretty interesting observations here...

My short take on Carl's two groups:

Seems that ELP was a "progressive" band more interested in the music, and if the $$ came, so be it. I think they did OK for a rock group playing Aaron Copeland.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

On the other hand, ASIA seemed like a crass commercial "supergroup" sell-out to capitalize on the MTV explosion ("Heat of the Moment", "Only Time Will Tell").

From wikipedia:

The band's first recordings, under the auspices of Geffen record label head David Geffen and Kalodner, were extremely popular with record buyers, yet considered disappointing by music critics and fans of traditional progressive rock, who found the music closer to radio-friendly album-oriented rock (AOR). However, Asia clicked with fans of popular arena acts such as Journey, Boston and Styx.

Whoa, cruel shoes, dude... a prog band and you get compared to BOSTON!
 

cplueard

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Why not get the best of two of the entries on the list?

 

dcrigger

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No, I'm not exactly saying that, I'm reacting to question of "how can you criticize anyone who's so successful?" I'm saying that to me financial success doesn't matter at all to me when I judge either an artist's work or even to even have respect for what they do. Certain things that t I hear come across to me as the sound of folks chasing the almighty dollar. I could be wrong about that, but if it comes across that way to me, I'm generally not going to be very interested in it. I don't necessarily enjoy everything that strikes me as "art for art's sake," but I respect folks who seem to have taken that path, even if I don't quite connect to their art. I understand the allure of money, I wish that I had more of it, but I'm glad that there are artists who are happy to make enough to get by but still aren't striving for that next rung to the point where they're willing to compromise what they do to get it. I happen to think that the world would be a far better place if more people were more motivated by the love of their art or craft and less motivated by the prospect of getting rich with it...

I'll add that though I'm not a fan of anything on this list, there are several artists here who don't strike me as being so much in it for the money. They seem to approach it more from an artistic and not necessarily commercial perspective...
I don't think we're really disagreeing much here at all. For me, art is too subjective to use any objective yardstick to measure it. So for that - I use my own personal yardstick that applies only to me.

That said - I have nothing but respect and admiration for any and all that make the effort - regardless of their motivations. And I'm not a mind reader, so have no faith my guesses regarding their motivations are accurate - and frankly just don't care.

Because one thing objective success can measure is that it proves many people found some joy in that music - which again for me, throws into the "world is a better place for it" category.

How valuable? Or how good? Again that's between me and my personal yardstick.
 

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This is a very astute response. I've worked at record stores part time since I was 18, and have definitely noticed this attitude slowly diminishing, particularly with younger people. People 30 and up still tend to be the worst and still seem to be the most likely to hold onto the cartoony aspects of taste as identity. Sometimes at the store if I get a hankering to listen to "Selling England By The Pound" or "Relayer"(also want to throw in how under appreciated I think Drama is), I just wait for the bile to come out with certain people. Screw 'em. Prog rules and the idea of authenticity in music is a suspect idea at best. Ex: in Genesis case how is a bunch of educated private school kids with no life experience singing about Greek mythology any more pretentious than a trust fund kid who grew up on a golf course donating their khakis, moving to Nashville, dressing up like it's the dust bowl, and writing songs about living in a pickup truck?
Yeah, I totally agree with this. I grew up loving both prog and harder, simpler music. I had friends who were into either punk/new wave or more psychedelic/prog sounds and it seemed like one was encouraged to be a part of one or the other camp. Musical taste was important and it seemed like one needed to declare a "tribe" and go with one sort of thing or another. Since I liked all kinds of stuff, I kind of felt like a man without a country! At some point, much later as a young adult, I began to feel that prog was kind of fluffy and inauthentic and though I couldn't bring myself to get rid of all of the stuff, I did trade in a number of LPs, which I now regret. I wish that I still had that Selling England by the Pound LP actually. As we develop, most of us stop feeling like we need to be part of any kind of tribe and don't work so hard to define ourselves; we are whatever we are... which in turn means that we're free to enjoy a variety of things even if fit into vastly different categories. I think that the best critics feel this way and make an effort to experience everything that they review on its own terms, rather than measuring everything by some sort of yardstick for authenticity... or anything else.

The whole thing with bands striving for authenticity really is pretty silly. It reminds of the Clash, when they sang "... turning rebellion into money," or Blue Oyster Cult, when they sang, "I'm after rebellion, but I'll settle for lies..." I still like a lot of the punk stuff that I grew up on but some of it does seem to be hammering the whole idea of authenticity a bit too much. A lot of the hardcore stuff seemed to be more about some kind of tribalism than actual music, to the point where it comes off to me as something that one would listen to only to rile up their anger at various things and not for any kind of real musical satisfaction. The best stuff, I'd say though brought together quality music with some good righteous anger...
 
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