Carmine vs Tommy

fishaa

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I am aware that Keltner played on that album also but never was able to find a break down of who played on what or if multiple guys guys contributed to the same same song but obviously you do know so please share.
Carmine played on ‘Dogs of War’

Keltner is on One Slip, Turning Away, Yet Another Movie and Sorrow.

Everything else has basic tracks of drum programming with Keltner and Bob Ezrin playing percussion, hihat, etc. and Mason plays percussion and some drum fills edited in here and there.
 

SpinaDude

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What I like most about Carmine is that he knows what notes are, not slop with him. Every note gets it's space.

This blows my mind, the forward movement, and the solidness. Love it!

He might be a cheezeball, but he can freaking play.


And this is awesome.

I agree. being a tool and being a great player aren't mutually exclusive. I'm not hanging out with the guy, so I can at least respect his abilities.
 

drummingbulldog

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Anyone here ever think Vinnie was way better than Carmine? Most great drummers have classic tracks. Bonzo-Levee/Fool in the Rain Gadd-Aja/50 Ways etc. Carmine played some stuff with VF/BBA but nothing is like wow that's unreal even for the time period. Any drummer who listens to Good Times Bad Times knows he/she is hearing a great track. Vinnie was good with Derringer on Rock n roll hoochie koo & was excellent with Sabbath & Dio. He's a pretty humble guy too. Carmine wrote Do ya think I'm sexy which I think kind of sums it up. His book was cheesy too.
 

dcrigger

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Carmine played some stuff with VF/BBA but nothing is like wow that's unreal even for the time period.
I don't know if you lived though that time - but I did. And that's not how it seemed at the time.

The first Fudge album was like "OMG, listen to the sound of those drums!!" Because prior to that record, drums had never sounded like that on a record... ever. At least, not to my knowledge.

And the rock chops stuff - the double BD work, the linear hands and feet stuff - no one else was doing that - not while sounding that HUGE. All through the first 4 Fudge albums with the 4th album featuring all that wicked playing on Shotgun and Break Song.

And this is before Zepplin's first album was even out - which was as impressive as hell as well. But it sure as heck ain't where it started.... that whole sound and approach started with Carmine. This is not debatable - if one simply listens to the albums - and checks the dates.

As for Vinnie - absolutely another great player and contributed some great work - but he has never been a historic player. A trailblazer nor a trendsetter.

Carmine was without a doubt a trailblazer - basically inventing what we think of us as "the big heavyweight hard rock drum sound" and not some obscure unknown trailblazer either (that first Fudge record sold a bazillion copies). To even mention writing "Do You Think I'm Sexy" as part of Carmine's legacy points to having really missed his significance as a player.

Sorry for the rant - but Carmine's under rated status with drummers - particularly rock drummers - is a pet peeve. As it simply astounds me.
 

marc3k

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I'm a big fan of Carmine's playing with the original Vanilla Fudge — even met him once after a VF gig in 1969. He didn't come across as a dick back then, but he certainly seems to have become one since — just read his autobiography "Stick It".
Wow that's awesome! I love the first Vanilla Fudge album, and I think it was mainly due to the drumming and the sound of the drums! I did not really care about the later releases nor the other stuff he played on. I could never believe that these guys on the back of album really played all this music :) Did he not also sing on these songs?

 

dcrigger

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Mainly harmony parts (they all 4 sang) - I think he my have sung a lead or two on one of the later albums.

As for their other albums - I found the second album totally unfulfilling (a feeling shared widely) but Renaissance, Near The Beginning and to a lesser degree, Rock and Roll remain some of my favorite albums to do this day. And the drumming isn't at the top of my list why (though it is consistently great) - no, the aggressive nature of the playing, the dramatic arrangements, Mark Stein's voice, Tim Bogert's bass playing - it's all so demonstrative. I've always just loved it.Very inspirational - not just in thinking of similar music, but as an approach that can be applied to any music creation.
 
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Ok back on subject (Carmine is a great drummer and wrote some really good books,) and helped create a unique style of heavy drumming.

Wasn't there an issue with this Ozzy record where one of the bass drum mic's wasn't working (or something like that?) and they caught the issue late. Couldn't that be a cause for "correcting some tracks?" And maybe even create some "perception" of time issues.

So let's get this straight. In the span of ONE touring cycle (a record and a tour.) There are issues with the recording, so two drummers are "supposedly" used to complete a record (only one credited.) Then the original drummer (from the record) starts the tour and is replaced (again?) by drummer #2, who is then fired, and the original drummer is hired back to complete the tour (after which he quits permanently.) Sounds like a mess to me.

All I know is this. If there is a case of (ego and talent) issues going on between these three people: Sharon (daughter of Donn) Osbourne, Carmine Appice, and Tommy Aldridge, my money would be on Tommy for humility, accuracy, class, and talent EVERY TIME!!! The other (unmentioned) culprit of the issues of two of the three people involved, is alcohol and cocaine.

Strangely (I would guess,) that Ozzy (himself) is basically an innocent (although severely inebriated) bystander in this entire situation. Ever wonder why some bandleaders (or management teams) can't keep a band together for more that a tour (or two?)

Apparently Tommy's resume, playing, longevity, humility, and reputation in the music and drum business deserves (and GETS) deep respect from EVERYONE... except Carmine.

MSG
 

Bri6366

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I'm a bit TA fan and caught him on the Diary of a Madman tour. Unfortunately, the Randy Rhoads accident occurred a week or so before the Philly show I attended. The concert was postponed for a month or so and Brad Gillis replaced Randy. Gillis did a good job, but Randy's death was such a tragedy and we lost one of the great ones.

As Tommy and Rudy Sarzo have said in interviews, they thought they had a great lineup with Randy in the band and were looking forward to finally recording an album together after the tour. After the accident, that chemistry was no longer there. Rudy went back to a reformed Quiet Riot and Tommy left the band.

Carmine always seemed like a cool guy and great at self promoting. In the time between Rod Stewart and Ozzy, he didn't have a major gig, but he seemed to be in every Modern Drummer. It was around that time my instructor was going through Realistic Rock with me. Carmine also said in past interviews that he joined Ozzy's band with the intentions of being together over the long haul. He was looking for a band situation as opposed to being a sideman and he thought that was what it was. Reading the interview above with him helping up finish Bark at the Moon, I can see he felt he had a stake in the band. As he was always into self promoting, he thought he was in the clear to sell his own merchandise at gigs, which the Ozzy camp (Sharon) took exception to and before he knew it, Tommy was back. I really don't have a problem with what he said about Tommy's playing. I stopped following Ozzy after the first two albums and like some songs here and there from everything since. Without Randy and Tommy I lost interest.
 

dcrigger

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..but given the technology of '82-'83 it would have been tough to "fix" the time on Aldridge's drum tracks.
In '82-83, the only way to "fix" a multi-track drum performance timing-wise was to cut/edit the tape. And to just effect the drums was impossible if anything else was recorded on the other tracks. You'd basically be editing everything at once.

Now it is absurdly simple - but back then... the only way was to re-record the drums.

But keep in mind, in the early 80's - the use of click tracks on pop/rock records was really frowned upon (they were considered "feel killers"). This meant the new drummer would need to include all of the tempo variations in their new performance - while hopefully "smoothing" them out as best as possible.

I did a entire Rick Springfield album like this in 1984 - where the production company had an unreleased album from 1978 that they wanted to "update" with 1984 arrangements keeping all of the vocal performances. The '78 album wasn't done to a click - of course. And the tempos were more than a bit.... expressive. Recorded by a really great group of highly respected players - whose names I'm not mentioning. Personally I thought the '78 album sounded good in context - so IMO there wasn't anything wrong with it. Though of course all of those tempo variations that worked fine in that context didn't work at all in the new context.

And in '84 - there was no technology to fix it. (Now I could time correct all of the those vocals to a tempo grid in an evening at home - but then... no way!)

So instead, I had to record scratch drums to the original tracks - or some of the the tracks - whatever worked... punching our way through section after section trying to create a basic drum track that sounded good with the vocal but didn't sound like it was fluctuating... as much. It still was but I just tried to even them out.

Then the other players built the tracks on my scratch track - then I came back and record the keeper drums at the end.

Yeah these kind of problems were impossible back then.... and then throw in drugs, booze, politics, power plays, massive egos, etc. OMG
 

Treviso1

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In 1986, I asked Tommy Aldridge about "Bark at the Moon" and he told me that Ozzy had the engineer erase the second bass drum track, so the entire album is missing his left bass drum and that is why the licks sound odd and off balance. Tommy played on "Bark at the Moon" 100%. Carmine came into the picture after the album was already done and while he started the tour, he was fired by Sharon early into the tour and Tommy returned to the band to finish the tour.
 

Radio King

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I don't know if you lived though that time - but I did. And that's not how it seemed at the time.

The first Fudge album was like "OMG, listen to the sound of those drums!!" Because prior to that record, drums had never sounded like that on a record... ever. At least, not to my knowledge.

And the rock chops stuff - the double BD work, the linear hands and feet stuff - no one else was doing that - not while sounding that HUGE. All through the first 4 Fudge albums with the 4th album featuring all that wicked playing on Shotgun and Break Song.

And this is before Zepplin's first album was even out - which was as impressive as hell as well. But it sure as heck ain't where it started.... that whole sound and approach started with Carmine. This is not debatable - if one simply listens to the albums - and checks the dates.

Carmine was without a doubt a trailblazer - basically inventing what we think of us as "the big heavyweight hard rock drum sound" and not some obscure unknown trailblazer either (that first Fudge record sold a bazillion copies). To even mention writing "Do You Think I'm Sexy" as part of Carmine's legacy points to having really missed his significance as a player.
Absolutely 100% agree.
 

Reddy

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I don't know if you lived though that time - but I did. And that's not how it seemed at the time.

The first Fudge album was like "OMG, listen to the sound of those drums!!" Because prior to that record, drums had never sounded like that on a record... ever. At least, not to my knowledge.

And the rock chops stuff - the double BD work, the linear hands and feet stuff - no one else was doing that - not while sounding that HUGE. All through the first 4 Fudge albums with the 4th album featuring all that wicked playing on Shotgun and Break Song.

And this is before Zepplin's first album was even out - which was as impressive as hell as well. But it sure as heck ain't where it started.... that whole sound and approach started with Carmine. This is not debatable - if one simply listens to the albums - and checks the dates.

As for Vinnie - absolutely another great player and contributed some great work - but he has never been a historic player. A trailblazer nor a trendsetter.

Carmine was without a doubt a trailblazer - basically inventing what we think of us as "the big heavyweight hard rock drum sound" and not some obscure unknown trailblazer either (that first Fudge record sold a bazillion copies). To even mention writing "Do You Think I'm Sexy" as part of Carmine's legacy points to having really missed his significance as a player.

Sorry for the rant - but Carmine's under rated status with drummers - particularly rock drummers - is a pet peeve. As it simply astounds me.
Fantastic insight, thanks you. The dates for everything are important and sometimes forgotten. There is a fascinating story of who attended the first VF gig in London early ‘67. I’m not sure there were any “civilians” there because every musician in town was in attendance. They all to a one walked out after and said they had to at least reconsider how they played live and performed on stage. The Beatles were there. Jeff Beck got a lot of ideas for his new band. I know a young Ian Paice was there. He and Carmine had great appreciation for Louie Bellson. That show launched a lot of bands and changed a few that existed. Things got “heavy” real quick. Hendrix May have been there and some Pink Floyd fellas as well.

Carmine may not be a blast to talk with occasionally, but he could play. His interview on the Trapset podcast with Joe Wong is pretty interesting. Cheers.
 

drummingbulldog

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I wasn't alive when Bonham came out either. I am not worthy obviously. I guess Ginger Baker owes Carmine gratitude as well since no one played heavy at that time. Bonzo could already play like that before he saw/heard Carmine but maybe he hipped him on overplaying & stick twirling. Carmine got Bonzo a Ludwig endorsement. Everyone knows that if you play era correct Ludwig drums you'll sound & play just like Bonham.
 

dcrigger

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I wasn't alive when Bonham came out either. I am not worthy obviously.
Oh now - there's no reason to get all defensive and sarcastic. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings or bruised your ego. But you made a claim specifically... "but nothing is like wow that's unreal even for the time period." A claim about a time period that you didn't live through that simply was not true. It's cool - you're not the first drummer to say similar stuff - as I think I pretty much inferred in my post.

I guess Ginger Baker owes Carmine gratitude as well since no one played heavy at that time.
Your words, not mine. As I would never say that... knowing full well the degree that Ginger and Carmine were contemporaries. And of course I would never claim that Carmine was the only drummer at that time who "played heavy". But again, that's not what I wrote. I wrote that "the whole sound and approach" of modern rock drumming (including Zeppelin) started with Carmine. I mean I'm sorry, but I just don't hear Ginger all that much in 99% of the rock drumming that came after the 60's. Do you?

Bonzo could already play like that before he saw/heard Carmine but maybe he hipped him on overplaying & stick twirling.
How do you know how he played prior to "67? Maybe he could.... but he didn't. Not that there's any record of. The only recorded example of Bonham's playing before Zep that I can find is this...


Where not surprisingly, he sounds like most every other drummer making records in 1964.

So we've now established that Bonham didn't always play like he did with Zeppelin - he was a drummer of his time, and like everyone else grew with those times.

Why do seem to find it offensive that hearing Carmine's sound and feel in 1967 might have influenced a young, hip, 19 year old player like Bonham? Heck at 19, I was still soaking up influences left and right. Cobham, Guerin, Gadd... each one effecting my approach profoundly. Wasn't it that way for you? Or do believe that Bonzo was just born playing as he did with Zeppelin right out of the womb? Of course, he had influences.

And whether you believe it or not - the first Fudge album was hugely influential - Carmine's drumming, the energy, heck the stretched out arrangements with their involved instrumental interludes was literally the blueprint of the prog rock that "officially" started two years later. Hugely influential... Ritchie Blackmore and Jon Lord have said that Fudge was the chief inspiration for creating Deep Purple - initially to simply make a "Vanilla Fudge clone".

So no in 1967, this was an album you heard... period. Like Are You Experienced? was. Or Fresh Cream. You were simply not a player on any rock scene and were unaware of these records. This was definitely one of those "Wow, that was unreal" albums.

So nobody is claiming that Carmine taught Bonham how to play.... but it is a fact that Carmine taught EVERYONE "this is what drums can sound and feel like". What we all did with that information was then up to us. Clearly John Bonham took that inspiration and put it to good use. Incredibly good use.

And that means it is a totally fair statement to say that what he did with Zepplin was firmly built, to a great degree, on the foundation that Carmine laid out for him... and us.

Just as my playing is what it is because of, yes me, but also Buddy, Mitch, Billy, Ralph Humphrey and Gadd. And your's by you and whoever your influences are. So was the phenomenal player that John Bonham built from his influences and what he then did with their lessons. To recognize this is no belittlement to his accomplishments... or your's or mine. It is just acknowledging that we all stand on the shoulders of giants... which means that those giants stand on the giants that came before them.

So again, I'm sorry if I've again offended you... all I would suggest is forget about the personalities... close your eyes to the stick twirls, the drum brands, etc. and just listen... and of course, keep track of the dates. And regarding this period of time - keep in mind that music was evolving very quickly. So two years was a lifetime - when we're talking '67 to '69.

Anyway that's it. Take care and stay safe - David
 

Old PIT Guy

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It's probably just me, but it seems like a lot of manufactured drama for something entitled Bark at the Moon. Not that there's anything wrong with barking at the moon if that's your thing.

My experience with any of it started and stopped with BB&A, Sabbath in the late 70s and Pat Travers (Aldridge) in the 80s. Sharon Osborne and her drug-addled husband are uninteresting without the benefit of spectacle. Which explains why there's so much of it always around them. Which might also explain why Carmine Appice lowers himself by routinely engaging in gossip regarding his contemporaries.
 

tillerva

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Really glad to see these replies here. Having little experience with Carmine’s recordings happy to see some stuff here to check out as well.
I’m still Tommy Rules though!
 

DavedrumsTX

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Trying to get to the bottom of this. Carmine Appice has always struck me as a jack ass and I can’t say enough good things about Tommy Aldridge but this really bugs me.
So is Appice saying he actually played on Bark at the Moon, or what are his “studio tricks” he alludes to? The drumming on that album is awesome.

While Carmine has a bit of a bad rap(somewhat deserved), he’s a great drummer and was a big influence on many drummers with his playing, gear and drum book.
 


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