Chicago's 25 or 6 to 4: Band Disagreement

drums1225

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Hey all,

I play in a Chicago tribute band and we're having a disagreement on something. I very matter-of-factly pointed out that, although our guitarist has always started 25 or 6 to 4 on his own (since long before I joined the band), on the studio version, Danny Seraphine actually doubles the intro guitar riff with flat flams on the toms. Having heard that song since childhood, even I had never noticed it until I was listening with a critical ear when I was learning the material 2 years ago.

Some of the guys in the band think I'm absolutely nuts. Every time I listen, I hear it as clear as day, but they completely dismiss me and actually make fun of me for believing this. It's become a big joke. The irony is, a brand new member is the one who most vehemently disagrees with me and he owns and operates a recording studio. He said he's listened on high end monitors, headphones, etc. He claims it's the percussive attack of the guitar, and the singer agrees. I can't NOT hear the toms there. Also, if what they're saying is true, where did that "percussive attack" frequency go once the kick/snare/hats groove enters?


Please tell me I'm not crazy. Or that I am. But tell me SOMETHING! What do you think? Toms in unison with opening riff, or my imagination?

Thanks,
Chris
 

blueshadow

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Danny posts on Facebook if you're on there hit him up and ask if he remembers. I hear what you hear...not sure its muffled toms or what....but not sure it would sound right live unless your toms are muffled too. More importantly why not try it, cracks me up when bands won't at least try something...if it sucks don't do it again
 

JDA

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what measure?

there's some noise in there but I think it's Kath's grubby massive/ hands /moving/ along the fretboard.. there's some noise in the 'second' one..and there's little extraneous noises...but not any part of a drum kit afaIcT so I'm going to vote no.
 
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JDA

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nyet?

the problem he's having with stand entanglement however is open for good guesses..
 
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Murat

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I have asked a great local drummer Paul De Long (he has an amazing drum book as well) who has been in a very successful Chicago tribute for a long time. He said there are actually two tracks of drums underneath that guitar riff and one is actually mirroring the guitar riff so you may be hearing it correct.
 

drums1225

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nyet?

the problem he's having with stand entanglement however is open for good guesses..
I'm not talking about live versions. He doesn't play it live. I'm talking specifically about the studio version, where he actually plays two separate drum tracks. (I hadn't noticed that either until I was learning the material).
 

drums1225

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I have asked a great local drummer Paul De Long (he has an amazing drum book as well) who has been in a very successful Chicago tribute for a long time. He said there are actually two tracks of drums underneath that guitar riff and one is actually mirroring the guitar riff so you may be hearing it correct.
Yes, Danny himself explains and demonstrates the two separate drum tracks that are layered throughout the tune. Are you talking about Brass Transit?
 

Ghostin one

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I could believe the bass drum is playing "one, and three" very quietly, or somebody thumping his thigh. It's so subtle and quiet it shouldn't matter, really.
 

moodman

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honestly don't hear any drums except the very first figure sounds like there might be a tom, didn't hear flams, not enough to want to double the guitar part.
 

TPC

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I vote no. (While there may be some tracks back there somewhere, they are so far back that playing them live would be a distraction.)
 

hardbat

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Electric guitars can produce all kinds of sonic frequencies depending on the type of distortion. I don't hear anything but guitar. Having said that, Danny's statement seems to suggest he did play something behind it, but does he specifically say that he was playing right from the very first beat? Because the riff goes on for a while and he of course joins partway into it - maybe he meant that those parts were layered.
 

BennyK

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I've never heard anything but guitar on the intro . Could've been something in the room sympathetically resonating or somebody thumping along , Pack o smokes jumping up and down , loose ceiling tile ... who knows ?

Now about the disagreement -

How important is it ? Is this the fine tip of the wedge where you may invite the expectations of further compromises down the road ? Is this just about some mysterious drum part that may or may not exist or is it something beyond ? Bands can get weird .
 
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JDA

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Two tracks within the song; doesn't say anything about the introduction
that I've yet to find.
He said there are actually two tracks of drums
yes, to that.
* never realized that 5-stroke roll was in there
knew there was something but a full 5 stroke roll wouldn't have thought of that)

always felt some extras in that song- but just felt it- didn't think..
just "too high" on drums to think about "minor details" : DD
 
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JDA

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but I don't see (any mention by him or anyone of ever "accompanying" the "intro"..


look at the couple Danny clinic, demo's and joeCool (if you can)
Can see/hear/ how the 5 stroke roll (tom,snare, hihat) was utilized in the tune)
~
Interesting that Isolated has the Bass guitar playing the intro also (does it?..seems like it.
 
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