Craigslist Cymbal Lot...what am i looking at here?

qcaudio

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Hey guys!

So i am admittedly more of a guitar player than anything but being a studio owner i am fascinated by drums and improving my collection. These cymbals were all a part of a 40s Gretsch Kit lot (ill ask about in a later post). Below are some dimensions and pictures of what i got. Just curious of any of its history/value. Thanks!

The best of the bunch is this Zildjian 15" that weighs 782.44 grams. Its so floppy if i hold it by the edge it feels like its going to snap under its own weight. Any way to date this thing or tell more what it is?
zildjian.jpg
zildjian2.JPG

One is a 19" Zildjian that is cracked and looks to have a repair attempted.
19 cracked2.JPG

The other is a 14" maxitone?
maxitone1.JPG
maxitone2.JPG

And the other is a 14" Ludwig by Paiste? Looks like someone installed a rivet intot he middle of for some reason? No idea they even made cymbals for them.
ludwig1.JPG
ludwig2.JPG
ludwig3.JPG
ludwig4.JPG

Then some weird "JB" hi-hat stand.
hithat stand.JPG

Any help you guys can be is appreciated! Thanks
 

Sequimite

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Paper thin cymbals have been made forever. The only one I have is from the 1920's.

The Ludwig by Paiste cymbals are definitely second line. I had a pair of 14" hi-hats and they had a quieter quality sound, nothing like the much superior 602's from the same era. Cymbal hole grommets used to be standard on marching band cymbals.

15" Z stamp looks like 50's to me, but one of the experts will be along to verify. That's about the only cymbal worth anything, maybe $100?
 
Z

zenstat

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Sequimite said:
Paper thin cymbals have been made forever. The only one I have is from the 1920's.

The Ludwig by Paiste cymbals are definitely second line. I had a pair of 14" hi-hats and they had a quieter quality sound, nothing like the much superior 602's from the same era. Cymbal hole grommets used to be standard on marching band cymbals.

15" Z stamp looks like 50's to me, but one of the experts will be along to verify. That's about the only cymbal worth anything, maybe $100?
Avedis Zildjian have been making cymbals since 1929 (nearly forever) and some early ones still have model ink saying so



although most of the older ones have lost their ink. Yours is not as old as that one I've shown. The 15" is a Hartrick Trans Stamp Type IV (T4). Here are the diagnostic features from my site:



read: http://black.net.nz/avedis/trans4.html#trans4

Bill Hartrick estimated the years for use of this trademark stamp as 1952-53, but he's never given us his sample sizes, nor published his methods for estimating first year of use and last year of use, so we can't really judge the weight of evidence. I tend to always think of them as plus or minus two years in the absence of proper data, although I don't always write the ±2 on each year.

As far as weight goes, cymbals back in the 1950s and earlier were lighter than they were later on, as a general rule. 780g is par for the 1950s course for a 15" cymbal. There are heavier cymbals from that decade (and earlier) which would have been for marching band or orchestral use. It could be used as a crash or as a cymbal for a hi hat pairing. The weight distribution is bimodal with some in the 700-900g range, then a gap, then the heavier ones in the 1100-1500g range. What they were manufactured for may be different from what they are used for today, as hi-hats (with modern hat stands) weren't around in the earliest decades, although they were established by the 1950s.

I'm still waiting on a bit more price data before I finish my analysis for 16" and smaller diameters, but I've done a preliminary look and based on 41 sales of 15" hats the expected median price is $175 with half of the sales between $150 and $230. That's not just for Trans Stamps, it includes earlier and later eras. For an orphan (or singleton) 15" my first approximation is to take half of the price of a pair, so $75 to $115 with an expected median price of $88. However, Trans stamps tend to go for a bit more than old As generally. So yeah, I'd bump the expected median price up to $110±40 for a 15" Trans stamp in good condition.

Here's the background info showing how Trans Stamps fetch higher prices and weigh less, using the 20" size where I've got more data:



although again part of that price effect is the lighter weight of Trans Stamp cymbals. The legend abbreviations are T for Trans (late 40s early 50s), L for Large (mid 50s), and S for Small (late 50s).



For all other info you can use the links in my signature. Those should do until a real expert shows up. :icon_e_ugeek:

And for those who noticed, yes the Large Stamp cymbals tend to be at the higher end of the weight range along with the 1970s ones. 1980s got heavier again. Large Stamps for various reasons of production methodology and weight distribution tend to "play lighter" than their weights suggest. There is much more to cymbal sound than just weight, although if you don't know anything else, weight and diameter are an ok first approximation.
 
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zenstat

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The 19" is most likely a 1960s cymbal. You can see why via my site, although only the top one of the triangle of three dots is visible.



Not worth very much money (maybe $20 with that crack) although there are some interesting things to say about it.

It would have started off with an edge crack which was drilled out to stop it spreading further. In some proportion of cases this sort of repair fails. The explanation is not yet fully known. It may be that the crack actually went past the place the hole was drilled but the leading edge of the crack was only visible with a microscope or similar. So the crack came back. The other explanation is that drilling a small diameter hole like that creates its own instability and the crack can start up again even if the hole was correctly placed just beyond the end of the crack.

This one looks like the crack continued on in the same general direction it was heading in when the hole was drilled. Sometimes you get that, and sometimes the crack takes off in an entirely different direction. And once the crack moved beyond the hole it shows all the classic attributes of a "random walk" statistical process, sometimes heading off at right angles and sometimes bifurcating into two cracks.

This example is also interesting because the crack moved on to be through the area where the die stamp was pressed in. I've recorded a few instances of Large Stamps cracking right on the trademark (thanks to Mike Layton who first put me on to this phenomenon), That's one of the problems of having a large stamp pressed into the metal: a weak spot which has the potential to crack with later use. I don't yet have enough stats to know of Large Stamps crack more than smaller stamps do.

May I have permission to use your photo for my web site? I've got a page planned which will cover cracks and crack repairs and as you can see this offers a few interesting details.

On to the Ludwig Standard. Yes to what Sequimite said. Those are covered here:

http://www.paiste-only.com/paistewiki/index.php?title=Ludwig

A few people have particular cymbals which are nice, but the line isn't generally considered professional level and thus doesn't attract a high price.

The MAXITONE is an Old J (nickname for old Japanese made cymbals). It would be seen as comparable to the Ludwig Standard. Neither top quality nor top price. They are recorded here:


I've got an old Kingston, and still haven't got some lab analysis done on the specific alloy composition. I'm a bit slow, and I need to get out the Dremel and cut out a few more pieces first. I've got maybe 10 alloy samples from different cymbals (two old Js from memory) to send off but now I'm submerged in the Christmas rush, so it won't happen until early in the new year.
 
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JazzDrumGuy

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The rivet on the 14" Ludwig was put there to avoid further spread of that crack in the center hole.....FWIW........
 

hardbat

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Maxitone is on the low end of MIJ cymbals. We used to joke about those in high school.
The Ludwig Paiste is more interesting, if it weren't for the cracks.
 

lossforgain

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zenstat said:
Here's the background info showing how Trans Stamps fetch higher prices and weigh less, using the 20" size where I've got more data:



although again part of that price effect is the lighter weight of Trans Stamp cymbals. The legend abbreviations are T for Trans (late 40s early 50s), L for Large (mid 50s), and S for Small (late 50s).
This graph caught my attention. I have a Large Stamp 20" A, (maybe you'd like info about it?) and it's one of my favorite cymbals. I can't think of a price I would sell it for, and it's ugly -- rivet holes, keyhole, and edge dings. That said, if L era cymbals aren't getting the dollars, maybe I should be looking for more of them! Anyone have one they are letting go of?
 


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