header.nohb.html

Cymbal with early Zilciler/Instanbul stamps & ink

Sequimite

DFO Veteran
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Messages
2,975
Reaction score
1,277
Location
Sequim (skwim), Washington
As I've gotten deeper into Turkish made cymbals I've picked up a few for historical interest. Below is a photo of the stamps, some of which are not entirely present of an early 12" Zilciler cymbal.
At the top is the moon star logo surrounded by "HAND MADE IN TURKEY"
Next first few letters are illegible but I believe it is, "ZILCILERLLC", "Zilciler" (cymbalsmiths) is still the name of the company that later used the "Istanbul" and "Istanbul Mehmet" brand names. EDIT: Based on drumtimejohn's photos below it must be: "ZILCERL CO". This must be an alternate English spelling of the Turkish.
Next is, "M TAMDEGER" (corrected)
Next is, "A TOMURCUK"
Next is, "HAND MADE"

Below the engraving is an ink stamp, "ZILCILER"

Wanted to put this out for others keeping an eye peeled for these. Hard to read, this one was advertised as a "Zilcher". It was made as a bottom hi hat cymbal and I'll use it as such with a lighter 12" Bosphorus on top.
 

Attachments

  • zpqbc44uwadnmh3dumvi.jpg
    zpqbc44uwadnmh3dumvi.jpg
    65.7 KB · Views: 64
Last edited:

drumtimejohn

DFO Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
Messages
2,413
Reaction score
1,127
Location
Somewhere
I think the bottom line would say “IN TURKEY”. It’s often very faint. Here are some pre-split stamps. Many have a double stamp look as well.
 

Attachments

  • 763CE59F-288B-4AA5-B839-A9E470A9F7EE.jpeg
    763CE59F-288B-4AA5-B839-A9E470A9F7EE.jpeg
    49.6 KB · Views: 52
  • D5600137-AAC9-4B7C-ADC0-4BD011299D9B.jpeg
    D5600137-AAC9-4B7C-ADC0-4BD011299D9B.jpeg
    40.9 KB · Views: 48

Sequimite

DFO Veteran
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Messages
2,975
Reaction score
1,277
Location
Sequim (skwim), Washington
I think the bottom line would say “IN TURKEY”. It’s often very faint. Here are some pre-split stamps. Many have a double stamp look as well.
Thanks. I corrected the "second" line. I think I can make out what is probably "IN TURKEY" at the bottom. No sign of "ISTANBUL" which makes sense since they only started using "ISTANBUL" after Zildjian sued them. Since "ZILCILER" is inked on the cymbal, it must be from before they started using "ISTANBUL".
 

drumtimejohn

DFO Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
Messages
2,413
Reaction score
1,127
Location
Somewhere
Thanks. I corrected the "second" line. I think I can make out what is probably "IN TURKEY" at the bottom. No sign of "ISTANBUL" which makes sense since they only started using "ISTANBUL" after Zildjian sued them. Since "ZILCILER" is inked on the cymbal, it must be from before they started using "ISTANBUL".
Yes, I too gather Istanbul was later added. Own a lot of pre-splits (even more coming this week) but never that first run you have. Cool cymbal!
 

bebopple

Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2014
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Location
Toronto, Canada
Presumably you also compare the sound - so has there been any noticeable change in timbre between the older and newer Zildjians? I had a 22” K ride from the mid-70s in London which had a beautiful low tone allowing the click of the stick sound to hover over this. A hallmark of the K…
 

Sequimite

DFO Veteran
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Messages
2,975
Reaction score
1,277
Location
Sequim (skwim), Washington
When Mehmet Tamdeger and Agop Tomurcuk were out of work due to the the K Zildjian plant closing they kept on making K Zildjian cymbals, but in their own company. Just as A and K Zildjian changed their cymbals to accommodate customer demand continuously, so did Mehmet, Agop and others taught their craft at K Zildjian or by Mehmet and Agop. Mehmet, for example still produces cymbals as close as possible to the K's he made in the 70's and to the K's he made in the 50's and dozens of other flavors he developed with current artists or his own imagination.
 

Tarkus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2021
Messages
360
Reaction score
447
Good find.

...
Next is, "M TAMGEDER"
Next is, "A TOMURCUK"
Next is, "HAND MADE"

...

This should spell "M. TAMDEGER", which means Mehmet Tamdeger, later the founder of Istanbul Mehmet. The 'A' stands for Agop, the other brand after split.

Just few weeks ago, I saw and heard a 20 (or 22?) of this era with 'Zilciler' logo in red. Was a good one, too. As I understood, made by the same people at the same way and the same place as the 'Old K Istanbul Zildjians' before.

On German ebay is one for sale:

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s...ge-schlagzeug-becken-video/2089618753-74-9214
 
Last edited:

Sequimite

DFO Veteran
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Messages
2,975
Reaction score
1,277
Location
Sequim (skwim), Washington
Thanks. I developed dyslexia at 49 and the letters often rearrange themselves as I type them. That was one the spellchecker couldn't catch.

Not sure, but I don't think it was the same place. After K Zildjian Mehmet always made cymbals in the same place with brands: Zilciler, Istanbul and Istanbul Mehmet. After Agop's death, his sons left to start up Istanbul Agop.

The guys who started Bosphorus, my favorite Turkish maker, learned the trade from Mehmet and Agop before starting their own business. Their production methods are virtually the same as K Zildjian was a century ago. I'm amazed looking at my new Bosphorus 19" Traditional cymbal that someone who has dedicated his life to this craft pounded on it with a hammer for seven to eight hours and even the lathing was done by hand with a single cutting edge. Amazon sells this cymbal new for $199. Given the materials, the perhaps dozen hours of work by a master cymbal smith this is just amazingly cheap.
 

Tarkus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2021
Messages
360
Reaction score
447
Sorry, didn't intend anything.

About the place, I'm not 100% sure.
Here a pic where 'pre-split' Istanbuls were made:

img_e0754-jpg.507818



Discussed here: https://www.drumforum.org/threads/help-to-identify-an-istanbul-cymbal-smith.187058/

The 'Hand made in Turkey' stamp with the star/moon seems to be the same one than at your cymbal and the pre-split Istanbuls, but I had no direct comparison, yet. If interested, I could picture mine with a ruler.
 
Last edited:

ThomasL

Very well Known Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
1,018
Reaction score
1,360
Location
Finland
Be careful. See my first innocent post on cymbalholic below. Here I am now, 250+ cymbals later ;-)
1651266081399.png
 

zenstat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2020
Messages
474
Reaction score
1,265
Location
Auckland New Zealand
There are multiple spellings of Zilciler, and lots of variation in examples. Some crazy ink too. And sometimes poking the Zildjan bear in their choice of words and fonts. How about

14-isty-ink.jpg

20-1994-bot.jpg

early-istanbul-ink.jpg

zilciler-early-ink.jpg

early-istanbul-top.jpg


Some day they will make it into the wiki, and anybody who would like to work on that section should let me know. I'm recruiting. I'm happy to give you all I've got in my archives.
 

costanzadrums

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
489
Reaction score
181
Location
United States

Attachments

  • Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 4.31.32 PM.png
    Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 4.31.32 PM.png
    633.7 KB · Views: 27
  • Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 4.31.20 PM.png
    Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 4.31.20 PM.png
    611.9 KB · Views: 25
  • Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 4.31.09 PM.png
    Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 4.31.09 PM.png
    646.8 KB · Views: 25
  • Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 4.30.57 PM.png
    Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 4.30.57 PM.png
    780.1 KB · Views: 27


Top