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Dating an unusual Zildjian stamp

guilbert

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Can someone help me with dating this Zildjian stamp? I've looked on the various timelines, but don't see anything that quite matches. I have never seen another stamp with the "Zildjian" type so narrow and blocky. It is a paper thin, buttery 13 3/4" cymbal with very fine, smooth lathing.
 

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Tama CW

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Ye Olde "Blocky" 1st stamp.

I think that could be a smith's trademark stamp under the "AL" in "CYMBALS." Looks like a horse shoe.
 

guilbert

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Ye Olde "Blocky" 1st stamp.

I think that could be a smith's trademark stamp under the "AL" in "CYMBALS." Looks like a horse shoe.
Oh, that's really interesting! So, was it a usual thing for the individual cymbalsmith to add their own hallmark? That little horseshoe is definitely some kind of stamp, but it's hard to tell exactly what it is - could be the partial bottom of an "A" from a mis-stamped "Made in USA."
 

guilbert

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that one doesn't have the short "i"
Hey, no, mine doesn't have the short "I." What does the short "I" usually mean, in terms of dating or otherwise identifying?
 

JDA

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Oh, I see, JDA. I think you're saying the complete "I" indicates that it is a true "First stamp" pre-trans, from the 1930's?
No I'm not saying either; I just see the short "i" and tall "i" as having some significance; not that I can find any in whats been written.
Just kinda obvious; you'd think.. at a glance;

Then it became something I notice when looking at 1st stamps.
the tall/short "i" was pointed out to me by @Tama CW a while ago.

when I showed a picture of mine:
My Pic My Cymbal here:

1stStampA 002.JPG


and your pic:

what-date-zildjian-jpg.578307
 
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Tama CW

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that one doesn't have the short "i"


Zenstat shows both the short and tall "i" in the 1st and 2nd stamps. And both stamps can come either way......Though I'd guess each stamp is more pre-disposed to being one way or the other (TBD).
I go by the Ottoman script as to whether it's 1st or 2nd stamp. The cruder style with "blobs" and "blocks" is the currently called 1st stamp. When you have thinner and more artistic figures like the 3 fine dots under the script....that's the 2nd stamp. But the article above shows multiple types of English used along with the script. Jury is still "out" on how these 6 different possible pairs might fall into a dating sequence.
 
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waynel

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Can someone help me with dating this Zildjian stamp? I've looked on the various timelines, but don't see anything that quite matches. I have never seen another stamp with the "Zildjian" type so narrow and blocky. It is a paper thin, buttery 13 3/4" cymbal with very fine, smooth lathing.
Wow, what’s the story behind how you found that one?
 

guilbert

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Hi, zenstat. Yes, hope you feel better soon!

The weight of this cymbal on my postal scale is 20.5 ounces, which is about 581 grams. It is definintely paper thin - it is flexible. As I say, this one is 13 3/4". I can't detect any ink markings at all.

I have another 14" cymbal with the same stamp, but in a heavy weight - I will try to get you a photo of that one too.
 
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guilbert

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Wow, what’s the story behind how you found that one?
To tell the truth, I don't remember where I got it. I've had it a pretty long time. I imagine it was an early eBay find, from the fun eBay days of the mid-1990's!
 
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guilbert

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I've just crawled out of bed and thrown up (again) and seen this while I'm not feeling so awful for a moment. I started to completely redo my work on these early stamps, but haven't gotten more than 10% of the way yet. Properly describing and classifying them has to precede any chance at chronology or relating the stamp characteristics to other cymbal attributes. Otherwise we are likely have another "1954 stamp" episode.



Knowing what your cymbal weighs may be informative for our research. Can you please weigh it accurately? Grams or ounces will do, I can convert. You call it "paper thin" but I presume you haven't got weight class ink saying so like this example from my site?

View attachment 578354

On present evidence the first cymbals came in just one undifferentiated weight class. This was a 1930 price list, the earliest seen so far.


View attachment 578355

View attachment 578356


By 1935 the PAPER THIN model/weight class appears in this Premier catalog

View attachment 578357

I've collected lots of weights for cymbals with different diameters and stamps on them. It's a matter of continuing the research to bring it together.
Hey zenstat - Here is the second cymbal I mentioned with the same stamp. This one measures 14" and is heavy - 1247 grams. I don't see any traces of ink stamps.
 

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guilbert

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I now see that the stamp I posted second has some slight differences from the first one! Particularly that in the stamp for the heavier cymbal, the "S" in Avedis is not aligned with the "N" in Zidjian! Dunno what significance that has. Well, more info for the database.
 
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