Did anyone out there snag an old stamp 22” on reverb on Friday or Saturday?

[slcdrummer]

Too bad it didn't end up in SLC or I might have had a chance to hear it! lol.

Still hoping I can rectify that eventually lol

 

[dingaling]

Going to ask a dumb question. Is a zildjian K from 1950 just a zildjian 1950 A a little thinner and hammered?

 

[JDA]

that's a start- (random hammered you mean)- but there's a Ton more to it; culture; whole 9 yards.

there are some similarities though that I contend apply only to Zildjian to Zildjian- from either continent;
there's some family to it..

And no also on the thinner part; there's heavy old Ks all thru the years, eras and in every dimension etc 12 to 22..into the few 24s they made in later latter years; tho not too heavy; I don't think they made any cymbal that I've seen or heard of that was 4000gs. May have heard of a near 3600g 24" that was about tops

Bear in mind old K weren't drum set thinkers in the way Avedis was (soon after Avedis began)
Old K were more classical Orchestral singles and pairs thinkers. Their thinking hadn't 'modernized' (and never did) before they were snuffed out.

 

[Tama CW]

Going to ask a dumb question. Is a zildjian K from 1950 just a zildjian 1950 A a little thinner and hammered?

The old K tones are quite different overall than what comes out of the old A's. There is a primal resonance and breath that emanates from them. Hard to
understand until you hear a number of them and constantly compare against other K's and A's. The old K's are also more brittle. Therefore, they crack more
easily than the A's. Their attrition rate is probably a lot higher....leaving fewer and fewer of good quality old ones to continue on. The 40's and 50's old stamps were made in
much smaller quantities than the 60's and 70's stamps. It wouldn't surprise me that for every good 20 inch old stamp 1950's K Istanbul surviving....that there are 25-75X as many good 20" 1950's A's.
And it wouldn't surprise me if the Int and New stamp 20's outnumber the 50's and 40's old stamp 20's by 5X to 10X.....or more.

 

[dingaling]

The old K tones are quite different overall than what comes out of the old A's. There is a primal resonance and breath that emanates from them. Hard to
understand until you year a number of them and constantly compare against other K's and A's. The old K's are also more brittle. Therefore, they crack more
easily than the A's. Their attrition rate is probably a lot higher....leaving fewer and fewer of good quality old ones to continue on. The 40's and 50's old stamps were made in
much smaller quantities than the 60's and 70's stamps. It wouldn't surprise me that for every good 20 old stamp 1950's K Istanbul surviving....that there are 25-75X as many of good 20" 1950's A's.
And it wouldn't surprise me if the Int and New stamp 20's outnumber the 50's and 40's old stamp 20's by 10X to 20X.

I’ve owned many old A’s and a few old k’s. I’ve just never thought about why they are different other than the hammering.
Is the alloy different?
What makes the sound so different other than hammering?
Why can’t even Zildjian recreate the sound and look today to make more?
If you hammer and old A can you get a K sound?
Why is this such a mystery, we all want old K sounds, just make them and sell them. Why isn’t it that easy?
Modern K zildjian sound nothing like old k. Everyone trying to make the old k sound is making their own variation, but don’t sound like old k’s. Even Spizz as great as they sound, they sound like spizz with old k qualities, but not old k’s.
It’s probably the strangest mystery of the entire drum market.
Which leads me this-
Did aliens make old k’s?
Was the metal sourced from mars before we could fly?
What the heck is going on!?
Thanks for letting me vent.

 

[JDA]

If you hammer and old A can you get a K sound?

no because you can't quite fully undo what's already been done ( just guessing..

Why is this such a mystery, we all want old K sounds, just make them and sell them. Why isn’t it that easy?

because take for example Avedis Ks. What's allowed sound parameters of what's sellable is a consideration whereas in Turkey wider allowance variant; one is over-tailored the other left in natural as-born not overly tweaked state

Did aliens make old k’s?

Possibly more likely they were less aware of ---less in-touch - of American trends in drum set ,swing; and were more old-school (very old -school) classical band marching oriented

the fact that they (Art Max Elvin Tony others ) were exquisite cymbals at times- suited to Jazz - attracted drum set players - was just a Quirk - not a plan- on old Ks part. It was a side benefit - that sustained them; via Gretsch mostly thru artist relations Phil Grant literally and figuratively distributing them to the endorsees hence distributing thru out-the-ground club scene; which led onto recordings; major recordings, that are ingrained into history forever


amen.
none of it planned in Turkey
more seen as a wise opportunity via Gretsch in New York
40s-50s into the 70s
by Phil Grant a little guy
from Pittsburgh
a very consequential figure
whom Elvin said was a very good (band) drummer in his own right.
Elvin would go to Central Park in the summer sit and enjoy listening to Phil with an orchestra/band/ (not drum set)

 

[JDA]

Jda's Ks

 

[Tama CW]

I suppose it starts with the cast blank itself. And if you can't duplicate that almost exactly right down to the specific metal compositions.......you're lost from the start.
Everything done after that including shaping, bell formation, lathing, and hammering only adds layers of complexity to get that exact style of sound. There are some
fine cymbal smiths who have probably gotten 85-95% there in copying the sound......but I have no idea if someone like Yamamoto or Spizzichino were able to make
"some" that were indistinguishable in tone from the real things. A similar thing occurs with the Stradavarius violins. There have been some wonderful copies made by
other makers. But if you put the best violinists in the world in the sound studio and ask them to separate the Strad from the best copies, the majority of them cannot do it.

 

[Tama CW]

JdaKs

View attachment 569123 View attachment 569124 View attachment 569125 View attachment 569126 View attachment 569127

Gosh darn JDA. This reminded me of a post on either the Old K or Vitnage Zildjian FB page the past week. Some member went bonkers over seeing a photo of
someone's old K for sale sitting on "grass." Oh the humanity!

 

[JDA]

that's not any grass that my grass...
and here's Nick.

 

[Tama CW]

Great demo their JDA by Nick. A lot of food for thought there in the different types. All of them are good, mostly great. And Nick calls them his 4 best old K's....he should know.
The far left paper thin 3a has almost pure cow bell tone...better than the others imo....with the type iV not far behind. And who says Type IV's aren't so good?

I was reading a post like that last night on the FB Old K group.....that Type IV's aren't sought out by many (ie "they aren't so good')
Well, that one there sounded pretty darn good to me. The airy (breathy) nature of the 3b and 3a jump out a bit in that video.

 

[JDA]

simply a group all slightly different from one another but all of one era Old Stamp
months ago I mentioned to him instead of crashing a cymbal like that he should also side-stick a cymbal lightly precisely to get the harmonic but he's a little too testa dura