Direct To Shell Tom Mounting

K.O.

DFO Star
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
21,201
Reaction score
4,301
Location
Illinois
I think actual Gauger RIMS, both the originals and the newer alloy versions were built to a higher standard than all the various knock-offs that have come since then, including the Gibraltar, Gretsch, and Ludwig versions.

I had a vibraband on my 12" tom for my "salesman" set. It was okay but I ended up adding a regular Ludwig bracket (drilled into the shell) to the tom and a vintage rail to the bass drum. Eventually I replaced the Ludwig bracket with an INDe mount (as detailed in the video below) which opened the drum up a bit more...although it sounded okay to me with the regular bracket...the sound I grew up with.

 

drumtimejohn

DFO Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
Messages
2,071
Reaction score
767
Thanks the video. Nice work! I’m hearing other considerations beyond sound. Such as, feel is important to you and that you find increased tom stability with a DTS. Also, it’s just a mounting preference that you value. I appreciate both as well.
 

ARGuy

DFO Master
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
4,778
Reaction score
1,528
Location
Minnesota
I used to have an el cheapo Pulse kit and installed RIMS on the mounted toms.
It made a dramatic difference with those drums. The sound became fatter and mellower.
It convinced me that my next kit would have RIMS as well.....that next kit was my Ludwig Classic Maple and I've had nothing but trouble with it ever since.
I've had two different RIMS on that tom and neither sounded worth a dam.
The first one pulled the tom 1/4" out of round (fortunately, I was able to correct that).
These days, I use it more as a spacer, than anything else.
The lesson I took from all this....be cautious if installing on a tom less than 12" diameter (my Ludwig uses a 10x8 rack tom). Try it and see what
you think.

Elvis
There's no problem using an isolation mount on 10" or even smaller drums. I've had RIMS mounts on 10" and 8" drums for years with absolutely no issues. The key is making sure the isolation mount is in round, and all of mine are. It sounds like you had a knock off mount that was poorly made and that's the reason the drum went out of round, not because it was 10".
 

Elvis

The King of Rock'n'Roll
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
14,790
Reaction score
2,893
Location
Poulsbo, Wa.
There's no problem using an isolation mount on 10" or even smaller drums. I've had RIMS mounts on 10" and 8" drums for years with absolutely no issues. The key is making sure the isolation mount is in round, and all of mine are. It sounds like you had a knock off mount that was poorly made and that's the reason the drum went out of round, not because it was 10".
No, I didn't have a knock off mount, I had TWO that didn't work.
Different manufacturers.
First one was DW version, right after they bought out Purecussion. Second one was Gibraltar. Mounts separated by about 10+ years.
I worked at the first one, but it was never right. Finally got tired of messing with it and figured I'd just gotten a lemon, so I tossed it and got another.
Same result.
SAME ISSUE, as well. It's that triangular plate everything mounts to.
Neither one had the correct curvature. It's like it was made for a 12 instead of a 10.
The Gibraltar was a little better than the DW and some carefuly placed whacks with a big ball pean hammer has got it pretty close now. The tom sounds better with this mount than the old one, but not nearly as nice as it could.
I'm done messing with this. It won't pull the shell out of round and that was my main concern.
These days, I use it as a spacer and it works fine in that role.
Sorry if you don't agree, but these are MY experiences and I post them as a warning to others.

Elvis
 

BennyK

DFO Star
Platinum Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
16,173
Reaction score
3,611
No, I didn't have a knock off mount, I had TWO that didn't work.
Different manufacturers.
First one was DW version, right after they bought out Purecussion. Second one was Gibraltar. Mounts separated by about 10+ years.
I worked at the first one, but it was never right. Finally got tired of messing with it and figured I'd just gotten a lemon, so I tossed it and got another.
Same result.
SAME ISSUE, as well. It's that triangular plate everything mounts to.
Neither one had the correct curvature. It's like it was made for a 12 instead of a 10.
The Gibraltar was a little better than the DW and some carefuly placed whacks with a big ball pean hammer has got it pretty close now. The tom sounds better with this mount than the old one, but not nearly as nice as it could.
I'm done messing with this. It won't pull the shell out of round and that was my main concern.
These days, I use it as a spacer and it works fine in that role.
Sorry if you don't agree, but these are MY experiences and I post them as a warning to others.

Elvis
I agree with you Elvis . If the grommets bind because of a tight uneven fit on the tuning bolts , ithe whole design fails and is counterproductive . Never had a problem with the original Gaugers , but the knockoff's are hit and miss .
 

DavedrumsTX

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
330
Reaction score
385
Location
Dallas, Texas
I'm a big fan of the original (and still the best to my ears) RIMS mounts. I've got them or the newer Alloy mounts on virtually all of my non-vintage drums except for my DW Workshop kit. I've been playing RIMS mounted drums for 40 years so I'm very familiar and comfortable with the sound and feel of RIMS mounted drums, and could not imagine taking what would be FOR ME a big step backwards in my drums' sound by using shell mounts. Suspension mounts were not invented for sustain. Anytime I hear someone say that, I know that they really don't know what they are talking about when it comes to suspension mounts.
Of course anyone can do anything they want with their own drums, and anyone that is satisfied with shell mounts, great! As far as the audience not knowing the difference, frankly, who cares? I notice a difference. I don't think the audience would notice the difference between a Gretsch Energy kit and a Gretsch Brooklyn kit, so why bother with anything above decently made entry-level drums, if that's your mind set.
Well said. I’ve been on the Gauger Train since the late 70s. I only have one Tom up in a snare stand. The Gauger Flex Frame makes a big difference.
 
Joined
Feb 8, 2020
Messages
9
Reaction score
12
Before everyone gets bogged down with science, it's always worth thinking back to all those hits made by Motown, Stax, Muscle Shoals etc, which are still being played on the radio today. No one ever worried about hardware-to-shell contact back then and as far as I know, no one in the 21st century is complaining about the drum sounds on those recordings!
 

stick2it

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
92
Reaction score
40
Location
NY
For my most recent kit acquisition, a Canopus Yaiba bop, I had Canopus mount the tom bracket directly to the shell (no RIMS). Directly mounted, the tom is easy to position where I want it, it looks great in its simplicity, and it doesn't add weight or bulk in transport. For me, suspension systems like RIMS having a belt-like metal band that follows the shell of the tom are inelegant (ugly) mounting systems that have nominal impact on the sound. Drums of decent quality, with single-ply heads (no muffling of any kind), provide plenty of resonance of a musical kind without a suspension system. I'm really pleased I declined RIMS on this kit.

Canopus Yaiba - direct mounted tom.jpg


I do have the stock suspension system on a couple of small Sonor kits; but the Sonor suspension system doesn't wrap the drum; it's mostly (visually) unnoticeable and therefore not an issue for me -- a far more elegant design.
 

Monday317

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2011
Messages
143
Reaction score
101
Location
Western PA
As I even typed the headline into this post, I could already hear the fierce comment war that is about to commence between people who are passionate about suspension mounts vs people who prefer direct to shell (DTS) mounts, but here I am....

Anyways, I recently picked up a Gretsch Renown RN2 kit, and although those tom mounts are pretty nice, and small. I wanted to drill these out for DTS mounts instead. I ended up recorded a video of the installation process, and a comparison of the two different mounting systems sonically.

Thought some people here might enjoy it.

I've played both and can't say I've heard a decisive difference myself. A couple YouTube videos I've seen did demonstrate some noticeable differences. For my own part, I prefer Pearl OptiMounts over DTS but couldn't sustain a long, heated, objective, debate on the matter.
 

karlcrafton

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
138
Reaction score
139
Location
Detroit, MI
My thought have always been, if the mount is small-ish and direct to the shell, change the head and tune the drum while it's on the mount.
That's what we always did in the days before RIMS. If the drum has Pearl, or Modular Ludwig, or Rogers giant tubes, yeah RIMS style mounts are nicer.
It's really great that hardware is a lot better today, with companies like INDe, and holders like the Atlas mount.

With bass drums, if someone muffles the head, has pre-muffed heads, or puts things in the shell, there's not really a benefit to having a virgin shell--other than the look of it, which isn't unimportant either.
What ruined drum resonance were the giant tubes and heavy mounts installed, not weather a small holder and an L-arm was on the thing.
Same with seamed or seamless snare shells. If it's not set up and tensioned to be wide open, and getting as much overtone as possible, a seamless shell doesn't afford any extra benefit IMO/E.
I have a couple seamed shell snares that can resonate as much as my seamless shelled snares that cost a LOT more money.
Just my 50 cents...
 

Elvis

The King of Rock'n'Roll
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
14,790
Reaction score
2,893
Location
Poulsbo, Wa.
For my most recent kit acquisition, a Canopus Yaiba bop, I had Canopus mount the tom bracket directly to the shell (no RIMS). Directly mounted, the tom is easy to position where I want it, it looks great in its simplicity, and it doesn't add weight or bulk in transport. For me, suspension systems like RIMS having a belt-like metal band that follows the shell of the tom are inelegant (ugly) mounting systems that have nominal impact on the sound. Drums of decent quality, with single-ply heads (no muffling of any kind), provide plenty of resonance of a musical kind without a suspension system. I'm really pleased I declined RIMS on this kit.
I do have the stock suspension system on a couple of small Sonor kits; but the Sonor suspension system doesn't wrap the drum; it's mostly (visually) unnoticeable and therefore not an issue for me -- a far more elegant design.
I agree, RIMS are a bit cantakerous (especially with the floor tom mount), but they can make a difference in the sound of the drum. The difference in the sound of the toms on that old Pulse kit I aluded to in my other post was truly jaw dropping. I really wish I could've realized the same experience with my Ludwig kit.
On the Sonor suspension system, I never saw the point of a rubber snubber pushed up against the side of the shell.
However, the old H-bar mount (like used on the Sonic Plus drums) I found extremely interesting.
I like how it dispensed with an extra bracket on the shell, by utilizing the lugs that were already there.
Elegant in its utility.
FWIW, my Sonor Force Custom kit uses a traditional bracket mounted directly to the shell and it sounds just fine.

 

sternerp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
139
Reaction score
141
Location
Sacramento, CA
Great video and nice work. I added a Gretsch USA Tom mount on the kick drum of my New Classic bop kit for quicker setup and load out. I kept the suspension mounts (never thought of doing a direct mount until seeing your post). Thanks for sharing!
 

HoorayGuy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2018
Messages
73
Reaction score
47
Location
Indpls.
DTS for me. I know that's considered a cardinal sin these days, I don't care. Now, I DO prefer a virgin bass however. I don't like the heavy toms sitting on top of my bass drum. So, I use a Gibraltar rack.
 

Trilock_Gurtu

Very well Known Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2017
Messages
1,332
Reaction score
1,468
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
Before everyone gets bogged down with science, it's always worth thinking back to all those hits made by Motown, Stax, Muscle Shoals etc, which are still being played on the radio today. No one ever worried about hardware-to-shell contact back then and as far as I know, no one in the 21st century is complaining about the drum sounds on those recordings!
And that's because most of the people on here are forgetting that 99% of the time once you add other instruments/frequencies to the mix, it doesn't really make that much of a difference (or, at all). I've heard Vinnie use both - still sounded exactly like Vinnie, regardless. But, use whatever you like (and inspires you to go all tribalism on a drum forum). This is the drummer's version of "taste great/less filling" debate, perfect for those who only play/hear drums.
 

TK-421

Active Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2017
Messages
25
Reaction score
57
Location
Los Angeles
Lots of misinformation about the purpose of isolation mounts. Do they increase sustain? Yes, but that's not the primary reason for using one. Because iso mounts allow the shell to vibrate more freely, they promote more low-end frequencies for a fuller, richer sound. THAT is the main reason why they exist. The added sustain is really more of a byproduct of the more freely vibrating shell.

Don't believe me? Take any tom, hold it tight around the shell to restrict its ability to vibrate, and strike it with a drumstick. Now hold it by the hoop and strike the drum. It will sound much fuller, with a deeper tone when the shell can vibrate freely.

Carry on.
 

5 Style

DFO Star
Joined
Aug 6, 2005
Messages
6,833
Reaction score
406
Location
SE Portland, Oregon
At one time I kind of convinced myself that they were important, but have since disavowed that notion. I've heard too many great players playing kits that sounded great that were vintage drums with surface mounted toms, mounted right on the bass drum. For years I used a set of Big R Rogers drums that my mom bought for me when I was a kid (in something like 1980 or so just before the company went under). I loved those drums (they were a really nice unusual red lacquer finish) but over time, I began to feel that the toms weren't resonant enough. I took those big heavy Rogers pipe mount things off of the toms and put Rims mounts on them. It may have helped a little bit but at the end of the day, they still sounded pretty hard and unresonant to me and I ended up retiring them (I gave them to a good friend though who still uses 'em). They probably do make a bit of a differnce, but it doesn't seem like it's anything all that dramatic... like the type/quality of the wood, the edges, heads, tuning, etc all have a far greater effect on the sound...
 

Matched Gripper

DFO Veteran
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
2,802
Reaction score
2,545
My thought have always been, if the mount is small-ish and direct to the shell, change the head and tune the drum while it's on the mount.
That's what we always did in the days before RIMS. If the drum has Pearl, or Modular Ludwig, or Rogers giant tubes, yeah RIMS style mounts are nicer.
It's really great that hardware is a lot better today, with companies like INDe, and holders like the Atlas mount.

With bass drums, if someone muffles the head, has pre-muffed heads, or puts things in the shell, there's not really a benefit to having a virgin shell--other than the look of it, which isn't unimportant either.
What ruined drum resonance were the giant tubes and heavy mounts installed, not weather a small holder and an L-arm was on the thing.
Same with seamed or seamless snare shells. If it's not set up and tensioned to be wide open, and getting as much overtone as possible, a seamless shell doesn't afford any extra benefit IMO/E.
I have a couple seamed shell snares that can resonate as much as my seamless shelled snares that cost a LOT more money.
Just my 50 cents...
The Atlas mount? Not IMO!
 


Top