Do Bop kits lose their luster?

[Matched Gripper]

The 18" bass drum has little to do with trad jazz (dixieland and swing). Even most late 40s to 50s bebop recordings were done using 20" or bigger bass drums. 18" bass drums made their entry in the post-bop era with players like Roy Haynes, Elvin Jones, Tony Williams and Jack DeJohnette, who used their bass drums a lot for comping. It's not about chops, it's about the sound and the role of the bass drum.

About 95% of my playing is small-group jazz, for which I use a 16" bass drum. For any other style of music where a low bass drum sound is desired (also big band), I prefer my 20" RB over any 18" I have owned. So it's not about losing their luster, it's about the right tool for the job. If you're a farmer and you buy a sports car instead of a tractor because it looks cool, you might end up selling it because it doesn't work that well for schlepping hay bales...

I’ve read and heard that the popularity of bop size drums arose from the practicality of lugging small drums in NYC when hard bop music was becoming popular. As a result, the sound of bop size drums (more articulate and higher pitch), became associated with bebop music.

 

[Houndog]

Surprised to hear that bop size kits are a tough sell. In years past, it seems that they were in high demand, especially the vintage bop kids.

Vintage USA BOP kits sure aren’t a hard sell .
I believe they command about double of bigger kits ..And they don’t last long for sale either …..

 

[ThomasL]

I’ve read and heard that the popularity of bop size drums arose from the practicality of lugging small drums in NYC when hard bop music was becoming popular. As a result, the sound of bop size drums (more articulate and higher pitch), became associated with bebop music.

Hard bop or bebop? You contradicted yourself.

Looking at old Gretsch catalogs, the 18" bass drum first appears in the 1961 catalog as optional for the Progressive Jazz outfit. The "Bop Outfit" was still 20/13/16 in the 1963 catalog. I think the term bop kit for 18/12/14 came much later, not sure when (or why).

 

[Matched Gripper]

Hard bop or bebop? You contradicted yourself.

Looking at old Gretsch catalogs, the 18" bass drum first appears in the 1961 catalog as optional for the Progressive Jazz outfit. The "Bop Outfit" was still 20/13/16 in the 1963 catalog. I think the term bop kit for 18/12/14 came much later, not sure when (or why).

Hard bop and bebop are contradictory?

 

[Gcort49]

I have gone 'bop' 15 years ago and never looked back.

Long gone, IMO, are the huge arena size kits of the 70's...double bass, 5 mounted toms, 2 floor toms...20 cymbals (exaggerating a bit, but you get my gist).

15 years ago I had a 18x20 Sonor kick pro cut down to a 10x20. I have always regretted not going out and buy an 18", but my 10x20 was nice..and still is.

I think with all the advances in drum design and woods being used, a small kit can get a big sound...besides, a good audi tech can make that 18" really 'kick'.

I used 2 flat rides and a 17" crash, 10x12 and 12x14 toms...served me well for my music (jazz/piano/acoustic)

 

[bpaluzzi]

I think with all the advances in drum design and woods being used, a small kit can get a big sound...besides, a good audi tech can make that 18" really 'kick'.

Yup. This is an 18x12 "Jazzette" sized kick (with 12x8 and 14x14 rack / floor). Just the camera mic.

Does it sound like a 24 or 26? No.
Is it a perfectly usable sound for rock / pop? Yes

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[ThomasL]

Hard bop and bebop are contradictory?

Hard bop came 10 years later.

 

[notINtheband]

My Tama Club Gig started out as an answered prayer. Replacing my 5-pc kit on gigs that I needed to have a tiny footprint. Great for backing acoustic songwriter type gigs or small stages.
But after a year or so, the trade-off in big sound and honestly, full-size presence, caused me to relegate the kit to rehearsals at our guitarists house.
I just didn’t want to be represented in a full band situation with a small kit.

That’s when I went back to the cumbersome, heavy full kit.
Another year of that, and I decided I needed to find another solution.

Enter Inde, and their Wayfarer Kalamazoo aluminum kit.

Problem solved!

 

[Steech]

IMO the 18” bass drum is a strange animal.
Supposedly suited to quieter playing as in small jazz clubs, yet….

1. Neil Peart had two 18” bass drums when he auditioned for Rush and Geddy said they blew him away

2. Elvin Jones used them and I’m guessing that no one would call him “quiet”

3. Tim Alexander played a double 18” bass kit for years. Yes, they were obviously mic’d up, but I’m guessing he had them because he liked the way they played and sounded.

4. The Gretsch Brooklyn 18” bass drum that I had was anything but quiet and easily one of the best bass drums I have ever played: loud, punchy, super musical, and incredibly responsive. Probably the single most satisfying bass drum that I have ever played.

 

[el_37]

Bop drum kits (e.g., 18-12-14) have been around and popular since bebop jazz started in the 1940s. Bop kits favor higher tunings, which lets the drummer play more melodic lines and gives a more rebound to the head so you can play faster and more articulate. Some jazz drummers (TonyWilliams) would even tune the batter much higher than the reso to get a LOT of rebound and do some incredible stuff. They are also lower volume which is good for smaller groups and acoustic settings. I’d say most acoustic jazz players favor these sizes. Before bebop, drums were really big and loud for big band playing (even bigger than many rock kits). There are also some other typical differences- bearing edge, wood, shell thickness, rims, heads, etc… between bop and rock kits. Can use any drum kit for anything, but I generally use my bop kit for jazz and my rock (22-12-16) kit for rock.

I wouldn’t say 18” bass drums have been “popular” since the 1940’s- there were very few 18” bass drums made from the 1940’s-1980’s and the ones that do exist are priced very high due to both rarity and demand. They were de riguer for a very small subset of players in the 1950's and 1960's- but as worshipped as those guys are- they were a tiny fraction of drummers.

You will also see a shocking number of what appears to be 20" and 22" bass drums in 1950's photos of some of the more (and less famous) modern jazz drummers of the era. There are quite a few pictures on the Roy Haynes thread of him using a WMP WFL setup that appears to be a 22/13/16 that he had for a few years in the early 1950's. By the 1960's almost all of them are pictured using what appear to be 18" bass drums.

In almost 30 years of serious vintage drum tracking, I’ve seen more 18x20 floor toms from the 1940’s-1980’s than I have 14x18 or 12x18 bass drums.

12 and 14’s are also harder to find from the 1940’s and 1950’s and 12’s only became really popular once the dual mounted tom setup became popular in the mid 60's. Yes vintage 12" and 14" exist in much higher quantities than 18" bass drums- but they dwarf in comparison to the sheer amount of 13" and 16" out there. Try finding a 1950's 12" tom- you will be looking for a while. 99.9% of the 12/14 toms were paired up with a 20" prior to the 80's, and a surprising number of setups sold new from the mid 60's to the early 70's were 20/13/16 or 20/12/13/16 or even 20/12/12/16.

The “classic bop 18/12/14” kit has only become super popular in the past 20 years after creeping in to the mainstream in the late 1990's. We went through those "fusion" setups with smaller toms for a few years, but most guys were still using 22" bass drums. Large drums have been very out of style for the past 20 years but I am noticing more people are starting to play 24/26 inch bass drums again and 14/15 mounted toms and 18 floors seem to making a slight come back as well. Enough small drums have sold the past 20 years, that the pendulum will probably swing towards the larger sizes again.

 

[K.O.]

 

[mydadisjr]

Just sold my bop kit... had an 18 x 16 deep bass that really kicked (used it with a lift). Pretty cool set, but I just wanted to get down to one set (do not gig out any more, just practice at home) and I am keeping my blue English Premiers with a 16x22 kick. Just love the great big "oomph"!

BUT if my Premiers got stolen or burned up in a fire tomorrow, I would buy an 18-12-14 kit in a heartbeat as my "only" kit... Tama or PDP.

Here is the kit that went away:

 

[cashmanbashman]

That’s a yes for me. I have had 2, a Gretsch Catalina and a Pork Pie Rosewood Zebrawood. I kept the Pork Pie much longer than the Gretsch. I don’t play out and I like to use as much gear as possible in my space. If the bop kit was set up then I only had room for one full size set. I decided I would rather have 2 full kits set up and the extra cymbals in use. It had nothing to do with quality or the lower volume.

 

[Rusty Knorr]

I've never really been drawn to them. I could never understand the attraction of 18" kick unless you're doing the schlep on a bicycle or scooter. All I know is every other thread in the buy/sell forum is someone selling a bop kit. Makes one wonder if what sounded like a good idea turns out not to be as wonderful as first imagined. Thoughts/comments?

Bop kit just means 18” bass drum, the other sizes people use for anything. Not sure why it’s such a big deal, I use 20” kicks for everything, an 18 is only a little smaller. You like 18’s and want to play a rock gig? Throw a trigger on it, there’d probably be one on a “normal” sized kick anyway, in most live situations. I love 18’s.

 

[T_Weaves]

Couldn't have said it better myself. But hey, if you guys like those lil ones, stay the course!

 

[bpaluzzi]

Couldn't have said it better myself. But hey, if you guys like those lil ones, stay the course!

He's saying you shouldn't use an 18 to drive a big band. I'd say most people agree with that. You're trying (unsuccessfully) to expand his argument beyond that.

 

[T_Weaves]

He's saying you shouldn't use an 18 to drive a big band. I'd say most people agree with that. You're trying (unsuccessfully) to expand his argument beyond that.

He's says band at one point and big band later in the convo. If you want to cherry pick to support your argument feel free. Personally, I wouldn't pay a nickel for an 18" bass drum. Why? Say these words out loud... "bass drum". Like I said, you want to play those little fellers (Carl fr Sling Blade reference) knock yourself out. It's my opinion. People need not to take it personal.

 

[Rusty Knorr]

He's says band at one point and big band later in the convo. If you want to cherry pick to support your argument feel free. Personally, I wouldn't pay a nickel for an 18" bass drum. Why? Say these words out loud... "bass drum". Like I said, you want to play those little fellers (Carl fr Sling Blade reference) knock yourself out. It's my opinion. People need not to take it personal.

Seems like Steve Jordan does ok using a 12” kick on his aux kit. Maybe you’d pay a nickel for one of those. Of course who wants a career like he has? I’m sure you’re doing just fine with your big ol “bass” drum.
Use what you like, let others use what they like. Arguing about it is pointless. There is room for playing whatever you like, but you better play it well, that’s all that really matters.

 

[Rusty Knorr]

Not specifically bop related, but a fascinating look at size comparison.

 

[T_Weaves]

Seems like Steve Jordan does ok using a 16” kick on his aux kit. Maybe you’d pay a nickel for one of those. Of course who wants a career like he has? I’m sure you’re doing just fine with your big ol “bass” drum.
Use what you like, let others use what they like. Arguing about it is pointless. There is room for playing whatever you like, but you better play it well, that’s all that really matters.

My last post on the subject. I have 3 (soon to be 4) kits. They all have 22" bass drums. Those aren't even big to me. I used to play twin 24" kicks. With thin shells on 3 of them medium on the other. They aren't even heavy. Frankly, I couldn't care less what Steve Jordan is playing. Since when does the size of one's bass translate into what kind of career someone has? That's just the most obtuse thing I've ever read. BTW, he was playing a 24" kick when I saw him in Pittsburgh fall of '21.

My question is this... What's more versatile? a 22" or an 18"?

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