Do you know anyone who can play fast DD with HeelDown technique?

RivaL

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Hey guys,

i was just wondering... all the blazing fast metal drummers use either swivel or heel toe.
I have always been using heeldown since i started drumming, my drum teacher was very jazz rooted so i never knew anything different than that!

Am i naive to try 16th notes in the 160-200bpm range as a HD-player or is it truly just practice after all?
Its quite frustrating as some people refer to the HeelToe as some kind of cheat method to get fast real quick, so i would have to start from scratch after having played the drums for 10+ years, that hurts!
Secondly i dont like the double stroke sound as much as clean single hits, Inferno from Behemoth or Jon Rice from Ex-Job for a Cowboy, who are my inspirations in that specific genre, seem to hit every stroke as single. Plus i never see them swiveling on boards either, matter of fact their feet look quite relaxed and not moving alot at all, so im wondering what kind of technique they are using.

So i dont know if i should slowy go up from 120bpm to x or if its wasted time with HD and i should simply acquire a new tech for those fast genres. Its depressing to see people with HeelToe outplay me with ease, and they only started playing like 4 years ago or so... I dont think im the worst with discipline when practising as well!

What do you think? Anyone playing HD for life?:angel8:
Its really RARE to see HD players nowadays, everyone is freaking flying on Youtube it seems!!

PS: I am on Axis Longboards, so yes direct drive!
 

polycrescendo

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Thomas Lang is one that can play fast heel up or down, I certainly cannot play heel down. Have you heard of Robin Stone? He does a killer job with doubles at higher tempos but I understand if you'd rather keep it all singles. I too struggle with high tempo singles but sometimes I can pull off a "floating ankle technique" that takes almost no energy and minimal hip flexors. I'd like to perfect that one personally.

Are you using a trigger? I had velocity issues with my Axis pedal and have switched to Trick longboards and have recently swapped to chain drive. The chain drives seems to help with the throw and makes singles a little more powerful.

Also, have you tried heel up doubles? I've been working on them for a long time now and finally I'm seeing the benefit of heel up doubles in certain situations.
 

Hop

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Check out some of the vids or the course by Marthyn Jovanovic... Here's a overview vid of the content:

 

Seb77

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sometimes I can pull off a "floating ankle technique" that takes almost no energy and minimal hip flexors.
I have nothing to do with metal or triggering, just focussed on double strokes for quiet playing for a while (jazz samba etc.). To me it's all drumming. I found raising the heel frees the movement, so "floating ankle" sounds right to me. Back on cymbalholic, Sinclair hipped me to playing heel up/further back on the pedal for quiet playing. I haven't adopted that completely though, still playing heel down most of the time.

In general, you will need to learn new techniques on your way to gaining speed, dexterity, dynamics etc. For example, with sticks, you cannot play everything just from the wrists; if you want to master certain things, you need fingers, Moeller etc. If you try to do everything with just one technique, especially fast stuff, you might hurt yourself. In the case of feet it could be Achilles heel, with hands tendonitis/carpal tunnel syndrome.
 

Tornado

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There doesn't have to be this huge distinction between heel down and heel up. The "floating ankle" thing was kind of an epiphany for me. The heel is off the plate, maybe a tiny bit, maybe a lot, but the movement is still largely from the ankle. You have more freedom with where the ball of your foot comes into contact with the pedal board too. And you can use that to your advantage when trying to get clean even doubles with a single foot. As for heel-toe, I'm not really a fan in that it seems like triggers are necessary for getting even sounds from each hit.
 

RivaL

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Thomas Lang
Yes Tom of course, haha. I have met him couple times at clinics or shows in his home town! The recent gig was with Virgil Donati, the tour they did! Super nice guy, but i dont see him soo much as "metal drummer" to be honest, but yes very clean technique afterall!!
 

RivaL

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Thomas Lang is one that can play fast heel up or down, I certainly cannot play heel down. Have you heard of Robin Stone? He does a killer job with doubles at higher tempos but I understand if you'd rather keep it all singles. I too struggle with high tempo singles but sometimes I can pull off a "floating ankle technique" that takes almost no energy and minimal hip flexors. I'd like to perfect that one personally.

Are you using a trigger? I had velocity issues with my Axis pedal and have switched to Trick longboards and have recently swapped to chain drive. The chain drives seems to help with the throw and makes singles a little more powerful.

Also, have you tried heel up doubles? I've been working on them for a long time now and finally I'm seeing the benefit of heel up doubles in certain situations.
Hello, i actually use a Roland TD12 for indoor drumming at home, so i dont have triggers no! I have heard and seen about the floating one, i dont get it, haha!
 

Old PIT Guy

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I too struggle with high tempo singles but sometimes I can pull off a "floating ankle technique" that takes almost no energy and minimal hip flexors. I'd like to perfect that one personally.
You may be referring to bursts of fast twitch muscle firing with some control? I think that's what it could be. I can get there if I'm well warmed up but I can't sustain it. A guy I respect quite a bit for his footwork advised me to work up to the point just where that floating feel is, back if off, and develop control from that point. That's helped, but the flutter, float, twitch, whatever it is, when you hit it dead-on is definitely a thing.

It's probably easier if you're younger. I'm not, so muscle fatigue is an issue.
 

polycrescendo

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You may be referring to bursts of fast twitch muscle firing with some control? I think that's what it could be. I can get there if I'm well warmed up but I can't sustain it. A guy I respect quite a bit for his footwork advised me to work up to the point just where that floating feel is, back if off, and develop control from that point. That's helped, but the flutter, float, twitch, whatever it is, when you hit it dead-on is definitely a thing.

It's probably easier if you're younger. I'm not, so muscle fatigue is an issue.
Yes, it turns into a fast twitch feel after I can hone in on it, at that point I can push the speed but it sure is hard to get to that point, let alone in controlled bursts. I'm considering swapping out my longboards with lightweight shortboards for this reason.

I also think that there is a two strike setup for this technique, meaning that the first strike is more of a heel drop to get the momentum started, then it takes another strike to adjust to the proper place on the pedal board. After those two are done, the floating ankle seems to work. I am nowhere near perfecting this so I'd love any advice as well.
 

Old PIT Guy

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Yes, it turns into a fast twitch feel after I can hone in on it, at that point I can push the speed but it sure is hard to get to that point, let alone in controlled bursts. I'm considering swapping out my longboards with lightweight shortboards for this reason.

I also think that there is a two strike setup for this technique, meaning that the first strike is more of a heel drop to get the momentum started, then it takes another strike to adjust to the proper place on the pedal board. After those two are done, the floating ankle seems to work. I am nowhere near perfecting this so I'd love any advice as well.
"Short bursts" - Initialization can be a b*tch with the twitch. I can usually get a 4 or 5 note flurry as a lead-in to something with the hands for a fill or short solo motif, but I need to be good and warmed up.

I've had the same problem initializing 4 limb quads at speed (RH-LF-LH-RF). Starting the sequence with the LF to RH helps, but it's too hit or miss to be clean as 32nds at low-moderate tempos. I can build it to speed no problem. Firing it on demand is my battle. Similar to ripping a single stroke roll between one hand and a kick as 32nds or 16 triplets at tempo. The first 4-6 notes are predictive for success.
 

RivaL

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What do you guys think about "James Payne" ?
I have been checking his content for some time now, he seems pretty darn good at any doublebass technique, he plays everything at an advanced level... swivel, heeltoe, ankle, heeldown!
Definitely informative videos!
Has anyone here ever checked out his paid online course programs or guides?
 

RivaL

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"Short bursts" - Initialization can be a b*tch with the twitch. I can usually get a 4 or 5 note flurry as a lead-in to something with the hands for a fill or short solo motif, but I need to be good and warmed up.

I've had the same problem initializing 4 limb quads at speed (RH-LF-LH-RF). Starting the sequence with the LF to RH helps, but it's too hit or miss to be clean as 32nds at low-moderate tempos. I can build it to speed no problem. Firing it on demand is my battle. Similar to ripping a single stroke roll between one hand and a kick as 32nds or 16 triplets at tempo. The first 4-6 notes are predictive for success.
Lol, we joined this forum at the exact same day, just 1 year difference! I just recognized that... haha
#offtopic
 


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