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Do you use alternate sticking when you can’t quite do what was originally done.

Stalky55

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Paraphrasing Fleetwood Mac, "Play your own way".
Unless there's another drummer in the crowd none of them will notice.
If there is another drummer in the crowd you won't know, unless he comes and makes a point of it to you after the show.
So long as you're comfortable with it, it doesn't really matter.
The joy is in playing, you have nothing to prove.
 

dcrigger

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Here’s a link of us playing it last Friday. And again, I'm playing two handed until the cross-stick part later in the song.

Of course, it's sounds great as you are doing it. I'm not at all any kind of a "has-to-sound-exactly-the-original" kind of guy. In fact, if anything I deduct points for that. :)

But in the context of how to make it more like the sound of playing one-handed.... playing it two handed means you're playing 6 of the 1/8th notes on the hat with the right hand - 1 & & 3 & &. With 2 and 4 being played on the snare. Right now, I'm hearing you accent the 1/8ths on 1 & 3 - more than those on the "&'s". Maybe try making them all equal - and of course all accented compared to the left hand notes. Not going crazy with this - Jeff's obviously trying to play them somewhat equally. But that forearm-elbow pump - the push-pull thing - is almost always go to create an accent.

In other words, right now I hear your main accents as being the 1/4's - just suggesting, letting the kick-snare do that, while up top in the hat have the hit chugging along pulsing the 1/8th note. CHUga CHUga CHUga CHUga CHUga CHUga CHUga CHUga or your case - CHUga CHUga SDga CHUga CHUga CHUga SDga CHUga
 

RayB

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Cant' quite = can't. So yeah, you have to do what you can do. No reason to sweat it.
Even when I was younger I sometimes had some trouble with right hand sixteenths on the hi hat at very quick tempos. And when I used 2 hands, the sound wasn't quite the same. Never made a big deal out of it: I learned to cheat a little so I got the groove without the exact sticking. It's not essential to duplicate the exact part on the record. But it is essential to create a groove that works for a tune with the band you're playing with. If you're worried about your hand tiring and getting sloppy in the middle of a performance, YOU CAN'T PLAY IT THAT WAY! Tension in your hands and worrying about executing a figure takes you out of the flow. Straining NEVER = Groove!
You can practice the sixteenths or whatever you struggle with on your own. There are tons of strength building videos online that can help if you want to spend the time.

I heard an interview with a noted opera coach a long time ago, He described how some famous opera singers would come to him because they just couldn't get some notes in a piece and it prevented them from performing it. Could he help them get those notes? He told them it may be possible with a lot of work, but you do such a beautiful job with so many other operas: Why obsses over a few notes that may be out of reach?
 

aindiparse

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Use whatever sticking is comfortable, and makes it work for you. Remember, you are playing for listeners, not drummers.
 

kerope

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So, for all of us who struggle with that kind of 16th note groove/tempo, here is a great tune to practice. Much slower, but still soulful as hell, and you will get looser rather than tighter as you play it:
One of my all time favorite songs and a great one to try the single handed hh patterns at a relaxed speed. Next stop: James Gadson . . . . . .
 

CC Cirillo

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Here’s a link of us playing it last Friday. And again, I'm playing two handed until the cross-stick part later in the song.


OK, that was definitely not how that Toto guy played it.

But you know what I’m hearing? A very polished cover band with a drummer who is putting his own spin on it. I don’t care what the sticking is. Your version has a little more sway and swagger than the original. It’s not as muscular; it’s sinewy. There is that telltale element of what Bay Area drummers will start to call the “Hertlein Slank.”

I don’t like that song, to be brutally honest (I find Toto’s songs uninspiring) but I enjoyed your band’s version of it. And if I had been in the bar sitting in the back sipping my Negroni looking cool, but certainly not as cool as you, I would’ve been bobbing my head. And my wife would’ve turned to me and asked: “Who did this song originally? I really like it.”

While I, as you, strive to improve my deficiencies, I’m a firm believer that one should not try to fit a square groove into a round song, and vice a versa. Whatever you did, worked, so thank you playing how you play.

If you had been able to note-for-note play that song as good as the revered Toto drummer, it would have lost my interest. Somewhere out there is a dude who auditions and nails every single part for the Not In Kansas Anymore Toto tribute band. You won’t catch me seeing that band. But I’d see yours.
 

DanRH

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OK, that was definitely not how that Toto guy played it.

But you know what I’m hearing? A very polished cover band with a drummer who is putting his own spin on it. I don’t care what the sticking is. Your version has a little more sway and swagger than the original. It’s not as muscular; it’s sinewy. There is that telltale element of what Bay Area drummers will start to call the “Hertlein Slank.”

I don’t like that song, to be brutally honest (I find Toto’s songs uninspiring) but I enjoyed your band’s version of it. And if I had been in the bar sitting in the back sipping my Negroni looking cool, but certainly not as cool as you, I would’ve been bobbing my head. And my wife would’ve turned to me and asked: “Who did this song originally? I really like it.”

While I, as you, strive to improve my deficiencies, I’m a firm believer that one should not try to fit a square groove into a round song, and vice a versa. Whatever you did, worked, so thank you playing how you play.

If you had been able to note-for-note play that song as good as the revered Toto drummer, it would have lost my interest. Somewhere out there is a dude who auditions and nails every single part for the Not In Kansas Anymore Toto tribute band. You won’t catch me seeing that band. But I’d see yours.
Wow! Thanks so much for those kind words.
 

BennyK

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I have an old friend who's in the upper echelon of industry people here in Canada . He told me he felt incomplete because , as an organist , he'd never legitimately mastered playing ' bass ' with his feet . Put his shoulder to wheel and got pretty good at it .

Build on what you've got and you might find that you have more than you thought .

 
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Tornado

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OK, that was definitely not how that Toto guy played it.

But you know what I’m hearing? A very polished cover band with a drummer who is putting his own spin on it. I don’t care what the sticking is. Your version has a little more sway and swagger than the original. It’s not as muscular; it’s sinewy. There is that telltale element of what Bay Area drummers will start to call the “Hertlein Slank.”

I don’t like that song, to be brutally honest (I find Toto’s songs uninspiring) but I enjoyed your band’s version of it. And if I had been in the bar sitting in the back sipping my Negroni looking cool, but certainly not as cool as you, I would’ve been bobbing my head. And my wife would’ve turned to me and asked: “Who did this song originally? I really like it.”

While I, as you, strive to improve my deficiencies, I’m a firm believer that one should not try to fit a square groove into a round song, and vice a versa. Whatever you did, worked, so thank you playing how you play.

If you had been able to note-for-note play that song as good as the revered Toto drummer, it would have lost my interest. Somewhere out there is a dude who auditions and nails every single part for the Not In Kansas Anymore Toto tribute band. You won’t catch me seeing that band. But I’d see yours.
Agreed!
 

Matched Gripper

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Something I've thought about is "why" the single handed approach feels different than the two handed approach. And I think there's a stiffness, a rigidness that you get from really pumping that one hand. And if the right hand comes down off the hats to play the backbeat, it's really hard to make it sound the same. So keeping that in mind and trying to duplicate all hats on right and snare on left, I think it's possible to come a little closer. A pattern that I have started to enjoy, and can really be made to feel different ways, is playing almost all the notes on the hats with the right hand, and the 'e' of 1, the 'a' of 2, the 'e' of 3, and the 'a' of 4 with the left hand. So you're always playing the right hand 5 notes in a row on the hats (right handed paradiddle followed by three strokes and a left on the hats) The left hand still plays the backbeats, and as long as the occasional left on the hats is controlled, it helps it sound more like the original groove.

I watched a video of Jeff playing this live, and they pushed it to 99bpm. That's crazy fast to feel so good.
The way I hear it, fast one handed 16ths are generally played with the Moeller method, accented 8ths with the shoulder of the stick and upbeats with the tip of the stick. It almost has a semi-shuffle or galloping feel to it.

So, with two hands, you can replicate that feel by hitting with the shoulder of the stick with the right hand and the tip of the stick with the left hand.
 

jmato

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When i saw the title of this thread, the Doobie's song "I Keep Forgettin" came to mind. It is Porcaro as well. It wont have the same feel using two hands but it will work. Only the good/knowledgeable drummers in the audience would know you are cheating!

I just started a thread talking about this song, and did not see this post before. That is an odd coincidence, and further evidence of the collective subconscious, methinks.

I listened to the recording, Dan, and it sounds great!
 

Nyama74

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I was just watching Peter Erskine's godly right hand in this live version of "The Chicken". Then I noticed, around 3:56, even he appears to be mortal.

If it's okay for Peter Erskine to switch up his stickings to keep things grooving, it's probably okay for the rest of us.

 
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Matched Gripper

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I was just watching Peter Erskine's godly right hand in this live version of "The Chicken". Then I noticed, around 3:56, even he appears to be mortal. My takeaway: if it's alright for Peter Erskine to switch up his stickings to keep things grooving, it's probably okay for the rest of us.

Saw that band play the chicken live about 40 years ago. Othello Molineaux is a great pan player.
 

bigbonzo

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Paraphrasing Fleetwood Mac, "Play your own way".
Unless there's another drummer in the crowd none of them will notice.
If there is another drummer in the crowd you won't know, unless he comes and makes a point of it to you after the show.
So long as you're comfortable with it, it doesn't really matter.
The joy is in playing, you have nothing to prove.
Even if there is another drummer in the audience, he may not be playing it correctly either.
 

Sven62

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For example, my band recently learned Georgy Porgy where Porcaro is playing 16ths with one hand on the hats at 96 bpm. I can’t keep it up throughout the whole song yet, so I’m playing 16ths with two hands. Ugg, hate to do it but a boys got to do what he’s got to do….

Here's a link of us playing it last week.
Try adopting the Moeller technique. That's what Porcaro uses. It's really the only way to play fast singles. Your link doesn't sound bad at all but you can can always tell the difference between it being played with one hand and with two.

 

YabaMTV

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DanRH

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I was just watching Peter Erskine's godly right hand in this live version of "The Chicken". Then I noticed, around 3:56, even he appears to be mortal. My takeaway: if it's alright for Peter Erskine to switch up his stickings to keep things grooving, it's probably okay for the rest of us.

My God! Tempo was 103!!!
 

ConvertedLudwigPlayer

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I started a thread about a month ago asking about improving my single stroke rolls and speed. I really needed to work on finger control. They were slower than I expected, and not nearly as smooth or consistent in the left hand. I got some good advice in the thread.

I basically pulled out the Evans pad and pair of 2B VF sticks abd started working on BOTH hands. The left hand has made a lot of progress, even though it isn't where I want it to be. The right hand has improved as well.

I work on single, doubles, triples, etc. while watching TV, during commercials, etc.

My hands are stronger, my grip has improved dramatically.

It reminds me of practicing on my pad in 4th grade when I started with my bell and pad setup. I would do souble stroke rolls for an entire 30 or 60 minute tv show.

FYI - I just turned 58.

Give yourself some time, practice and patience.

And, if you play it with 2 hands a month or so from now, who cares. You are still playing it and having fun.

We are all on a journey with different equipment to carry over a variety of paths, mountainous terrain, canyon floors and wide open spaces. Enjoy the ride!
 
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