Drum Set in a corner?

Rmgreg

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While I agree with everyone that said there's nothing like hearing it to find out. But to venture a guess...

I would think being directly under that peak could be a liability - in much the same ways the corners are. It wouldn't even have an advantage re: symmetry - as the peak doesn't seem like it would be in the middle of the room.

So to me - I'm with you - in leaning towards either of those corners on the left side of your drawing (opposite those barn doors). I can't recall if you're just talking rehearsal or recording as well. But if recording - you could easily focus a bunch of sound treatment in that corner to help your drum sound immensely.

I record facing into a corner of my 11x15.5 ft room and it has been working great. I built a fiberglass/rockwool bass trap into that corner (actually all three of the corners) - so the bass drum faces that (right now, about 30" back) trap and there are three 2x4 ft 4" panels on each of the corners side walls (4 of those panels are also partially reflective (diffusing).

All of that and the drums and the mics fit into a basically 7.5 x 7.5 square - and if you face the other way, it could be even less. I only record in this space - so much prefer not having to walk around and avoid bumping into mic stands, nor constantly having to crawl back into the corner. But the acoustics of it works both ways - and you (or I) could easily flip back and forth depending on what we're doing.

Two other thoughts - if you're going to record - try and avoid install wall to wall carpet - getting wall to wall carpet out of my room was a huge improvement. I have a 6 x 6 carpet/rug under the drums - but not having that whole surface blanketed by carpet has really helped the drums, the speakers, everything sound better.

Second thought - I get a sense you are thinking a that a dash of rockwool and a couch and some bookshelves are going to be sufficient - and yes, they might. But it is highly unlikely. Particularly with that vaulted ceiling (drywall, I assume). I mean, there's nothing to be done until the interior is closed in - I would just prepare in your mind that you might end up wanting/needing a boatload of acoustic panels to make the room comfortable to play in - let alone record in.

But compared to the scope of the whole project - making, covering and placing a bunch of panels is a pretty minor deal.

Anyway - good luck with your build - it looks exciting!!
No sheet rock anywhere. Walls will be solid logs. Roof will be wood slats over exposed rafters then insulation then metal roof. Do you mean acoustic panels behind me in the corner or in the opposing corner? My understanding is the vaulted ceiling is much better than flat.

Thanks for the tip on floors. I own and Oriental Rug Cleaning company so I can toss several old rugs as needed over wood floor...maybe just stained plywood.

I'm prepared to make rockwool panels that could be just black fabric covered or double as artwork with different coverings.
 

dcrigger

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No sheet rock anywhere. Walls will be solid logs. Roof will be wood slats over exposed rafters then insulation then metal roof.
All which should be better, I would think. But in practicality, have no experience as to what it will sound like as a starting place. I can imagine it would better - but how exactly will be revealed once it's built.

Do you mean acoustic panels behind me in the corner or in the opposing corner?
I would think near the drums would be the first priority - as for acoustic panels, we're talking about two things - are maybe better, two usages for two different issues.

The two issues are reflections - ping-ponging - flutter echo - between opposite surfaces. This is usually dealt with by placing something on or about those surfaces to break up the reflections - Trey's wall hangings for example. Or panels made of rockwool or fiberglass hung on the walls or ceiling - or hung off a few inches off of them.

And two - bass build-up, which happens most in corners. Usually dealt with by bass trapping... one way is to straddle the corners with the same type of panels that go on the walls - the other is to fill the corners completely. Lots and lots of info available on this - just google "bass traps"

So yes, bass trapping the corner behind the drums would be the first priority - but frankly the more corners you do the better the room will sound. The rule of thumb is in small rooms (and 16x16 is still a small room) you can't have too much bass trapping. And even if you did all four corners of the room - that would still only be treating one third of the room's 12 corners (acoustically a corner is where to perpendicular surfaces come together - wall to wall, ceiling to wall and floor to wall).

But yes, I would think near the drums would priority one.

As for Rockwool - just as all fiberglass isn't suitable for treating acoustics - the same applies to rockwool. The garden variety, big box store stuff that you put in your ceiling or walls is not at all effective for making sound panels out of. To make panels from rockwool, you really need to use something like "Rockboard 60"

And frankly sourcing this stuff locally can be a real pain - and shipping will kill you if you get it mail order. For my build earlier this year, i was planning on using Rockboard - but found that most all of the local distributors had shifted back to stocking primarily Owens 703 - as that's what all the builders were spec-ing.

Personally it didn't matter to me - as I would never use either for exposed acoustic treatments with covering them all around with fabric - so no rockwool or fiberglass is exposed directly to the room. You just have to dress properly when building panels with the fiberglass. So may want to go with what you can affordably get.

My understanding is the vaulted ceiling is much better than flat.
I don't disagree - to a point. Both have their problems. I was just thinking that purposely centering on the vault may not be an advantage at all (basically supporting your desire to set up in the corner)
Thanks for the tip on floors. I own and Oriental Rug Cleaning company so I can toss several old rugs as needed over wood floor...maybe just stained plywood.
I'm prepared to make rockwool panels that could be just black fabric covered or double as artwork with different coverings.
See my above comments on rockwool.

And just to add - these can be made to look quite stunning. Speaking from the wife pleasing/decorator perspective - they could de-rustic the all wood appearance of your room a bit. Softening it with the fabric texture and providing some architectural interest.

Since doing the studio earlier this year - before xmas I finally tackled the horrendous acoustic of our new home's large living room-kitchen-dining room (great room)... wood floors, drywall everywhere - hard to understand dialog on the TV with turning it way up - hard to hold conversations for that matter... Did a couple of large rugs which helped a bit - so convinced the wife to try some a bunch of panels in that space. "But I don't want it to look like an office. Or worse yet, a recording studio..." - an understandable request. Anyway - we tried it - we love it - and it sounds so much better.

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hsosdrum

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I disagree with Dave Crigger about wall-to-wall carpeting. I spent 40 years in the audio business and can state unequivocally that all other things being equal, a carpeted room will reproduce sound with much more acoustic transparency than an uncarpeted room. With no carpet the floor becomes a giant acoustic reflector through the midrange and higher frequencies (between roughly 300Hz and 5kHz).

Imagine for a minute that we're talking about light instead of sound. Now imagine an uncarpeted floor made of mirrored glass. If we introduce lots of light into that room it would become a nightmare of reflections. The exact same thing is true of sound. A bare floor acts as an acoustic reflector. Throw a carpet or a few oriental rugs on that floor and you'll considerably reduce the amount of unwanted sound that bounces around the room. (Carpet works better than rugs because with its backing it's quite a bit thicker, and will absorb a wider range of audio frequencies.) This will make everything easier to hear once you're playing in there with other musicians.

If your drums sound too dead when sitting on a carpet, do what Buddy Rich did: Set up your drums on a couple of 4x8 plywood sheets. My drum room (11' x 14' with a bay window, so more like 12' x 14') is fully carpeted, and I decoupled the drums from the floor by putting them right in front of the bay window on a 6' x 8' platform made from 3/4"-thick MDF panels (topped with a thin drum rug) resting on Auralex PlatFoam (very dense foam) strips. I have six 2' x 4' acoustic foam panels spread over the walls (leaving some areas reflective) and six 2' x 2' acoustic foam panels spread over the ceiling above the drums (again leaving some areas reflective). The total investment was probably under $300 and it's a great-sounding room that yields great-sounding drum recordings. If I were to replace the acoustic foam on the walls with the kind of panels that Dave Crigger used in his great room I'm sure that my drum room would sound even better.
 

Rmgreg

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I disagree with Dave Crigger about wall-to-wall carpeting. I spent 40 years in the audio business and can state unequivocally that all other things being equal, a carpeted room will reproduce sound with much more acoustic transparency than an uncarpeted room. With no carpet the floor becomes a giant acoustic reflector through the midrange and higher frequencies (between roughly 300Hz and 5kHz).

Imagine for a minute that we're talking about light instead of sound. Now imagine an uncarpeted floor made of mirrored glass. If we introduce lots of light into that room it would become a nightmare of reflections. The exact same thing is true of sound. A bare floor acts as an acoustic reflector. Throw a carpet or a few oriental rugs on that floor and you'll considerably reduce the amount of unwanted sound that bounces around the room. (Carpet works better than rugs because with its backing it's quite a bit thicker, and will absorb a wider range of audio frequencies.) This will make everything easier to hear once you're playing in there with other musicians.

If your drums sound too dead when sitting on a carpet, do what Buddy Rich did: Set up your drums on a couple of 4x8 plywood sheets. My drum room (11' x 14' with a bay window, so more like 12' x 14') is fully carpeted, and I decoupled the drums from the floor by putting them right in front of the bay window on a 6' x 8' platform made from 3/4"-thick MDF panels (topped with a thin drum rug) resting on Auralex PlatFoam (very dense foam) strips. I have six 2' x 4' acoustic foam panels spread over the walls (leaving some areas reflective) and six 2' x 2' acoustic foam panels spread over the ceiling above the drums (again leaving some areas reflective). The total investment was probably under $300 and it's a great-sounding room that yields great-sounding drum recordings. If I were to replace the acoustic foam on the walls with the kind of panels that Dave Crigger used in his great room I'm sure that my drum room would sound even better.
Good info. I'm sure at some point I will want to record but I have no experience with this. First it will be a prelactice room for drums, guitar and bass. I'd like the ability to record at some point. If I do carpet it will likely be a thin commercial grade vs padded residential l, so Oriental rugs may be a better choice since wool is thick and dense.
 

Rmgreg

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All which should be better, I would think. But in practicality, have no experience as to what it will sound like as a starting place. I can imagine it would better - but how exactly will be revealed once it's built.



I would think near the drums would be the first priority - as for acoustic panels, we're talking about two things - are maybe better, two usages for two different issues.

The two issues are reflections - ping-ponging - flutter echo - between opposite surfaces. This is usually dealt with by placing something on or about those surfaces to break up the reflections - Trey's wall hangings for example. Or panels made of rockwool or fiberglass hung on the walls or ceiling - or hung off a few inches off of them.

And two - bass build-up, which happens most in corners. Usually dealt with by bass trapping... one way is to straddle the corners with the same type of panels that go on the walls - the other is to fill the corners completely. Lots and lots of info available on this - just google "bass traps"

So yes, bass trapping the corner behind the drums would be the first priority - but frankly the more corners you do the better the room will sound. The rule of thumb is in small rooms (and 16x16 is still a small room) you can't have too much bass trapping. And even if you did all four corners of the room - that would still only be treating one third of the room's 12 corners (acoustically a corner is where to perpendicular surfaces come together - wall to wall, ceiling to wall and floor to wall).

But yes, I would think near the drums would priority one.

As for Rockwool - just as all fiberglass isn't suitable for treating acoustics - the same applies to rockwool. The garden variety, big box store stuff that you put in your ceiling or walls is not at all effective for making sound panels out of. To make panels from rockwool, you really need to use something like "Rockboard 60"

And frankly sourcing this stuff locally can be a real pain - and shipping will kill you if you get it mail order. For my build earlier this year, i was planning on using Rockboard - but found that most all of the local distributors had shifted back to stocking primarily Owens 703 - as that's what all the builders were spec-ing.

Personally it didn't matter to me - as I would never use either for exposed acoustic treatments with covering them all around with fabric - so no rockwool or fiberglass is exposed directly to the room. You just have to dress properly when building panels with the fiberglass. So may want to go with what you can affordably get.


I don't disagree - to a point. Both have their problems. I was just thinking that purposely centering on the vault may not be an advantage at all (basically supporting your desire to set up in the corner)




See my above comments on rockwool.

And just to add - these can be made to look quite stunning. Speaking from the wife pleasing/decorator perspective - they could de-rustic the all wood appearance of your room a bit. Softening it with the fabric texture and providing some architectural interest.

Since doing the studio earlier this year - before xmas I finally tackled the horrendous acoustic of our new home's large living room-kitchen-dining room (great room)... wood floors, drywall everywhere - hard to understand dialog on the TV with turning it way up - hard to hold conversations for that matter... Did a couple of large rugs which helped a bit - so convinced the wife to try some a bunch of panels in that space. "But I don't want it to look like an office. Or worse yet, a recording studio..." - an understandable request. Anyway - we tried it - we love it - and it sounds so much better.

View attachment 481639

View attachment 481640
What are "Trey's wall hangings"?
 

dcrigger

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Yep I've studied bass traps and diy traps and panels made with breathable cloth, wood frame and stuff like this https://www.lowes.com/pd/ROCKWOOL-S...th-Sound-Barrier-15-25-in-W-x-47-in-L/3394032
Actually this exactly the stuff you don't want to use for making panels - all it will do is dampen the highs leaving you with a dull and honky bass ringing room. (EDIT: see my walk back of this statement in #33 - the points below are still valid IMO, just not when applied to this specific product)

You see a room has a reverberation time that occurs across the whole range of frequencies. Generally to play and listen to music, we want to shorten that reverb's length - because when it's too long, it masks and blurs the sound we are trying to listen to. And it does this at all frequencies - we'll often notice the high ringing as a fluttery echo - but we'll hear the low stuff as ringing mud...

If we just reduce or shorten one frequency range of this reverb - we don't usually experience it as being "partially better" - but as revealing just how bad the problem that's left is - and how much it really bothers us. Shorten the highs and upper mid a lot and were left with a room that is horribly woofy... dull... boxed in feeling...

Which is why this is both challenging and often expensive to get right... because high frequencies are easy and cheap to remove - slap some carpet on the floors, hang some drapes, or some panels made of soft, un-dense batting and you can easily bring those high frequencies in line....

But then what happens when you try a sort out the lower frequency - add some bass trapping in the corners for instance. Well the problem is that those bass treatments will also suck out some highs and mid as well - it's not practical to build a bass trap that doesn't also remove highs.... But we already fixed our highs - with all of that carpet and wall coverings.... so when we add our bass traps, we've now muted the highs so much that the room again sound dull and bass again.

Anyway - I would really suggest going to gikacoustics.com and checking out their wonderful selection of videos - also I can't recommend enough that you should consider taking advantage of their free acoustical design service.... they are really incredible knowledgable and quite forthcoming with sharing that knowledge. And did I mention it's free?
 
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Rmgreg

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Actually this exactly the stuff you don't want to use for making panels - all it will do is dampen the highs leaving you with a dull and honky bass ringing room.

You see a room has a reverberation time that occurs across the whole range of frequencies. Generally to play and listen to music, we want to shorten that reverb's length - because when it's too long, it masks and blurs the sound we are trying to listen to. And it does this at all frequencies - we'll often notice the high ringing as a fluttery echo - but we'll hear the low stuff as ringing mud...

If we just reduce or shorten one frequency range of this reverb - we don't usually experience it as being "partially better" - but as revealing just how bad the problem that's left is - and how much it really bothers us. Shorten the highs and upper mid a lot and were left with a room that is horribly woofy... dull... boxed in feeling...

Which is why this is both challenging and often expensive to get right... because high frequencies are easy and cheap to remove - slap some carpet on the floors, hang some drapes, or some panels made of soft, un-dense batting and you can easily bring those high frequencies in line....

But then what happens when you try a sort out the lower frequency - add some bass trapping in the corners for instance. Well the problem is that those bass treatments will also suck out some highs and mid as well - it's not practical to build a bass trap that doesn't also remove highs.... But we already fixed our highs - with all of that carpet and wall coverings.... so when we add our bass traps, we've now muted the highs so much that the room again sound dull and bass again.

Anyway - I would really suggest going to gikacoustics.com and checking out their wonderful selection of videos - also I can't recommend enough that you should consider taking advantage of their free acoustical design service.... they are really incredible knowledgable and quite forthcoming with sharing that knowledge. And did I mention it's free?
Will do. There are a ton of diy videos using that stuff from lowes and similar. Why is that stuff so inferior?
 

dcrigger

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So he just hung rugs? I can do that for sure! I own a rug cleaning company
Yes - but don't take that as a automatic panacea - as he stated, he did it as a workaround to survive working in a temporary space. I believe Trey has been involved with many studio situations and has an idea of what he needs to function OK - probably not optimally, but functional.

Again this all goes back to - hearing what the room sounds like and going from there. Though obviously that's easier with experience - because while there are often a bunch of different ways of accomplishing things... physics tends to be an pretty unforgiving pain in the rear. So again, this is why getting some real advice can go a long way in saving you money in the long run - because nothings worse than having to rip stuff out that you thought might work, but didn't. (I know, I've been there) :)
 

dcrigger

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Will do. There are a ton of diy videos using that stuff from lowes and similar. Why is that stuff so inferior?
Sorry - I'm going to roll that back quite a bit.... more research leading to less confusion on my part. Roxul Safe and Sound appears to be quite similar to Roxul AFB. AFB is not quite as dense as 703 - meaning a lot of recommendations to increase thickness of application to achieve similar results. And of course, the Roxul is very floppy - resulting in frames being completely required. But that's a small issue IMO.

So no, again sorry - I don't see anything wrong with making panels of that at all. You can build bass traps with it as well from I've read.

Sorry for the confusion - needless to say.... I don't do this for a living... just been stuck building a fair number of rooms over the years ranging from sucking to functional to halfway decent... anyway, sounds like your doing your research. Which is essential in a "measure twice, cut once" sort of fashion. :)
 

El Larry

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I practice in a fairly small rehearsal space with 3 guys. I set my throne as far back in the corner, and angle my kit out from there. On recordings it sounds fine, but the space savings is what is important on my end.
 


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