Durability of different alloys

[michaelg]

I once had a Paiste signature fast crash crack on me along a lathe line and I've got drummer friends who cracked some B20 Zildjians and a Bosphorus.

Is there a general consensus to which alloys tend to be more durable (all other things being equal) ?

 

[JDA]

Think it's a player/operator question..
Never had any alloy crack (had some B8 bend) under normal playing.
(I said normal playing... I overheatedly played a brand new 18" K Con Zildjian once and broke (body crack) it. My Fault. (over-banging against the stem- was the charge)
Normally Cymbals (any) don't fall apart all on their own.

 

[sixplymaple]

I’ve cracked Paiste Signature cymbals and Sabian AA/AAX/HH cymbals. I don’t see a difference in durability between different alloys. I‘ve grown to enjoy heavy weight crashes though.

 

[John DeChristopher]

This is an old debate. And I think the debate is often misunderstood.

We can all agree that B8 cymbals are stamped from sheets of metal (92% copper 8% tin) and formed into cymbals. The metal/alloy is "pre-made" if you will, then the sheets are cut, hammered, lathed, etc and worked into becoming a cymbal. Some wonderful cymbals are made from B8 alloy.

B20 cymbals start as a casting (80% copper 20% tin with traces of silver) and are heated, rolled, pressed, hammered, lathed etc and worked into becoming a cymbal. The debate begins in the concept or philosophy that cast cymbals (B20) are more durable due to the continued heating and rolling, which creates a cross weaving of the molecular structure, thereby making a more durable cymbal.

So people confuse durability as being related to the alloy, when really it has a lot to do with the process. At least that's how I see it.

 

[mbettis]

How is the B8 formed into sheets?

Thanks,
Matt

 

[premierplayer]

How is the B8 formed into sheets?

Thanks,
Matt

Don't know. Cast and rolled?

 

[JimmySticks]

This is an old debate. And I think the debate is often misunderstood.

We can all agree that B8 cymbals are stamped from sheets of metal (92% copper 8% tin) and formed into cymbals. The metal/alloy is "pre-made" if you will, then the sheets are cut, hammered, lathed, etc and worked into becoming a cymbal. Some wonderful cymbals are made from B8 alloy.

B20 cymbals start as a casting (80% copper 20% tin with traces of silver) and are heated, rolled, pressed, hammered, lathed etc and worked into becoming a cymbal. The debate begins in the concept or philosophy that cast cymbals (B20) are more durable due to the continued heating and rolling, which creates a cross weaving of the molecular structure, thereby making a more durable cymbal.

So people confuse durability as being related to the alloy, when really it has a lot to do with the process. At least that's how I see it.

You could be right about B20 being stronger due to rolling and heating, but I believe before the process begins, B8 is a stronger alloy due to it only having 8% tin instead of the 20% tin in the B20. The more tin, the weaker the cymbal.

But as JDA mentioned, operator error would likely be the biggest factor in a cymbal failing.

 

[Markkuliini]

You could be right about B20 being stronger due to rolling and heating, but I believe before the process begins, B8 is a stronger alloy due to it only having 8% tin instead of the 20% tin in the B20. The more tin, the weaker the cymbal.

Are you sure about that? Sure, tin itself is quite soft, but still mixing copper with tin gives us bronze, which is harder than copper itself. Somehow tin hardens the alloy.
I browsed quickly through material datasheets for both CuSn20 and CuSn8 and didn't see big differences there.

 

[JimmySticks]

Well, isnt

Are you sure about that? Sure, tin itself is quite soft, but still mixing copper with tin gives us bronze, which is harder than copper itself. Somehow tin hardens the alloy.
I browsed quickly through material datasheets for both CuSn20 and CuSn8 and didn't see big differences there.

Yeah, it’s hard to nail down. Some say one thing and another says something different. But my thoughts are B20 cymbals are more brittle and difficult to produce, which is why we pay more for them.