Dusty Springfield VS Buddy Rich | The Feud of 1966

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Matched Gripper

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You have me confused with someone else. I never read BR's account of that incident, so could not imply anything one way or the other regarding it. Go back and reread the posts and if anyone implied such discuss or debate it with them.
I don’t need to re-read. I quoted your post that gave rise to my question. If you didn’t intend to imply that BR’s account was dishonest then that would be the appropriate response to my question.
 

mtarrani

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I don’t need to re-read. I quoted your post that gave rise to my question. If you didn’t intend to imply that BR’s account was dishonest then that would be the appropriate response to my question.
I reread what I said. How you managed to get me implying BR was dishonest is beyond me. In fact here is my entire quote:

" You are asking the wrong questions. My comment was an opinion that I formed based on documented episodes of BR's behavior. Put another way, based on the content of the article read in the video I tended to believe BR was capable of being that way. No where in the video did BR misrepresent anything because his words were not recited. If you think that the video was dishonest, take that up with the video creator - I merely posted it with a comment about not being surprised. "

Here I more than implied that I thought BR was a jerk based on previous episodes of his behavior: "My comment was an opinion that I formed based on documented episodes of BR's behavior."

Here I mentioned that BR could not have misrepresented anything (i.e., be dishonest), because his words or responses were not in the video. Kind of the opposite of implying that he was dishonest: "No where in the video did BR misrepresent anything because his words were not recited."

So my question to you is where did I imply anything? I was pretty straightforward in my opinions. Where did I imply BR was dishonest? Nowhere in the entire quote supports that. Quite the opposite when you read the second snippet that I highlighted from what I said.
 

mtarrani

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She got Led Zeppelin signed to her label. That's good enough for me.
Contrast Springfield's opinion of LZ with BR's opinion of LZ and Bonham. Here is a direct quote:

Listen, I had a surprise the time Kathy, my daughter got me out to sec Led Zeppelin, when they played Madison Square Garden. I wasn't too anxious to go, but I went, to please Kathy. We sat fairly much in the front, and for what seemed to be the first year that they were on there, I endured it—not a change of tune, not a change of a melodic line, but the heavy organ, the heavy guitar and the drum. The finale was a drum solo—and he had maybe two million dollars' worth of drums up there; I think Carl Palmer's the only other guy I've ever seen with so many drums. He started playing and during the course of his solo a cat came out in a loincloth, with a torch; he started dancing, and the drummer was playing the tom-toms, or whatever he was doing. Obviously he had asbestos in position, because this cat set fire around the set of drums. Now, I don't know what that does for a drum solo, but it scared the hell out of me—I thought the joint was on fire! I'd no idea what was going on. But when you have to resort to that, you're saying in essence to the audience: "I don't really play that well, but look how brave I am."

Source: http://www.jazzprofessional.com/interviews/Buddy Rich_6.htm
 

bigbonzo

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Contrast Springfield's opinion of LZ with BR's opinion of LZ and Bonham. Here is a direct quote:

Listen, I had a surprise the time Kathy, my daughter got me out to sec Led Zeppelin, when they played Madison Square Garden. I wasn't too anxious to go, but I went, to please Kathy. We sat fairly much in the front, and for what seemed to be the first year that they were on there, I endured it—not a change of tune, not a change of a melodic line, but the heavy organ, the heavy guitar and the drum. The finale was a drum solo—and he had maybe two million dollars' worth of drums up there; I think Carl Palmer's the only other guy I've ever seen with so many drums. He started playing and during the course of his solo a cat came out in a loincloth, with a torch; he started dancing, and the drummer was playing the tom-toms, or whatever he was doing. Obviously he had asbestos in position, because this cat set fire around the set of drums. Now, I don't know what that does for a drum solo, but it scared the hell out of me—I thought the joint was on fire! I'd no idea what was going on. But when you have to resort to that, you're saying in essence to the audience: "I don't really play that well, but look how brave I am."

Source: http://www.jazzprofessional.com/interviews/Buddy Rich_6.htm
Hahaha...who knew......Buddy has a sense of humor.
 

mtarrani

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Hahaha...who knew......Buddy has a sense of humor.
He did. It was perverse, but a sense of humor no doubt. This is directly from the same link I posted: I often say, in a little bit of humour, something to the effect that Miller's music was so bad that I wouldn't be surprised if one of our planes shot him down! I feel that there were enough people who wanted to hear good music, as opposed to what Miller was laying down, that it wouldn't be too unreal to visualise that. A lot of people are very shocked: "Oh, how can you say that?" Well, that's what I think; so that's how I say it. But if you think about it for a while, without being offended, it's very possible.

Of course the last six words of that quote are somewhat dark. Lest anyone think I am implying anything, I'm not. I'm outright asserting an opinion that there was something wrong with him mentally.
 

Matched Gripper

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I reread what I said. How you managed to get me implying BR was dishonest is beyond me. In fact here is my entire quote:

" You are asking the wrong questions. My comment was an opinion that I formed based on documented episodes of BR's behavior. Put another way, based on the content of the article read in the video I tended to believe BR was capable of being that way. No where in the video did BR misrepresent anything because his words were not recited. If you think that the video was dishonest, take that up with the video creator - I merely posted it with a comment about not being surprised. "

Here I more than implied that I thought BR was a jerk based on previous episodes of his behavior: "My comment was an opinion that I formed based on documented episodes of BR's behavior."

Here I mentioned that BR could not have misrepresented anything (i.e., be dishonest), because his words or responses were not in the video. Kind of the opposite of implying that he was dishonest: "No where in the video did BR misrepresent anything because his words were not recited."

So my question to you is where did I imply anything? I was pretty straightforward in my opinions. Where did I imply BR was dishonest? Nowhere in the entire quote supports that. Quite the opposite when you read the second snippet that I highlighted from what I said.
Wrong post, Mike. See post #67 which provides as follows:
mtarrani said:
After listening to the "Band Tapes" I tend to think that her side probably has a ring of truth to it.
Why is that? Where does BR misrepresent the events? Further, where does DS admit that she assaulted BR, or explain the underlying cause for her assault? Lack of candor, omitting an important detail, under the circumstances, is no less dishonest than making a knowing false statement.
 

hsosdrum

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...I'm outright asserting an opinion that there was something wrong with him mentally.
Naahh, you just don't understand/appreciate that kind of dark humor. Many of us do, and there is nothing wrong with us mentally.
 

mtarrani

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Wrong post, Mike. See post #67:

Why is that? Where does BR misrepresent the events? Further, where does DS admit that she assaulted BR, or explain the underlying cause for her assault? Lack of candor, omitting an important detail, under the circumstances, is no less dishonest than making a knowing false statement.
That was not implying anything. It was an outright statement that in my opinion the report of BR's behavior had precedent. I could not be any more clear, of thought I could not be. As for omitting an important detail, I once again invite you to take that up with the video creator. I posted a video and a series of opinions (and some direct, attributable quotes) throughout this thread, but am not the type to passive-aggressively imply anything. I come right out and say it. To be clear, my opinion of a video with a narrative claiming BR was a jerk has a ring of truth to it to me because of previous documented antics by BR. Is that clear enough for you?
 

Matched Gripper

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That was not implying anything. It was an outright statement that in my opinion the report of BR's behavior had precedent. I could not be any more clear, of thought I could not be. As for omitting an important detail, I once again invite you to take that up with the video creator. I posted a video and a series of opinions (and some direct, attributable quotes) throughout this thread, but am not the type to passive-aggressively imply anything. I come right out and say it. To be clear, my opinion of a video with a narrative claiming BR was a jerk has a ring of truth to it to me because of previous documented antics by BR. Is that clear enough for you?
 

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I'm sure there wasn't a guy on that bus who didn't know what he was getting into when he joined the band. Buddy's temperament and enormous reputation preceded him. They knew, or should have known, what he expected of them on the stand. If they didn't know, they were both naive and guilty of gross negligence. He shouldn't have had to tell them where he'd been, that he had played with the who's-who of jazz. Literally. Anyone who hadn't been living on a deserted island should have been hip to that. It was chump if any of them thought he would sit back and let slide anything less than 100% effort in his band.
Man, Buddy had a waiting list of guys that wanted to play on his bandstand. They lived in Buddy's time, a tough time, and they understood where he was coming from.

Again, we keep on looking at Buddy from a 21st century perspective. Wrong!!! They were different times, times with hard men, they could take Buddy's tough personality and thrive off of it. They thrived on it because that's the way they all were in that era. For most of them Buddy was no different than Goodman or Kenton or any other tough band leader. Play your best or move on. Geez, Buddy wasn't even the worst of them, not by a long shot.
 

mtarrani

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Man, Buddy had a waiting list of guys that wanted to play on his bandstand. They lived in Buddy's time, a tough time, and they understood where he was coming from.

Again, we keep on looking at Buddy from a 21st century perspective. Wrong!!! They were different times, times with hard men, they could take Buddy's tough personality and thrive off of it. They thrived on it because that's the way they all were in that era. For most of them Buddy was no different than Goodman or Kenton or any other tough band leader. Play your best or move on. Geez, Buddy wasn't even the worst of them, not by a long shot.
I don't quite understand the 21st century reference. I was born in 1948, my father in 1922, my maternal grandfather in 1887 (yep, a LONG time ago) and I think each of the generations that I cited would find BR's behavior inexcusable at worse and crass at best. I was born 31 years after Buddy and find his behavior unacceptable.
 

JimmySticks

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I don't quite understand the 21st century reference. I was born in 1948, my father in 1922, my maternal grandfather in 1887 (yep, a LONG time ago) and I think each of the generations that I cited would find BR's behavior inexcusable at worse and crass at best. I was born 31 years after Buddy and find his behavior unacceptable.
Not where I was born. Brooklyn NY, just like Buddy, tough place, hard scrabble existence BITD. You fought for everything. Buddy was typical. My father and his friends were much the same. They wouldn't have blinked twice at Buddy's personality.
 

mtarrani

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Man, Buddy had a waiting list of guys that wanted to play on his bandstand. They lived in Buddy's time, a tough time, and they understood where he was coming from.

Again, we keep on looking at Buddy from a 21st century perspective. Wrong!!! They were different times, times with hard men, they could take Buddy's tough personality and thrive off of it. They thrived on it because that's the way they all were in that era. For most of them Buddy was no different than Goodman or Kenton or any other tough band leader. Play your best or move on. Geez, Buddy wasn't even the worst of them, not by a long shot.
Better yet, consider Miles Browning, someone who was the architect of the aviation victories in the Pacific in WWII. He actually contributed to something that saved American lives, shortened WWII in the Pacific and made genuine contributions to those victories that go way beyond what any drummer in history ever accomplished. His personal flaws prevented him from attaining flag rank and he was never given the credit he should have because of those flaws. Or Alan Turing, who won the war in the Atlantic because of inconvenient personality issues (for the era). And we are arguing over a drummer who knew how to play in a super human manner. Perhaps that is why I am not impressed with Buddy and am unwilling to give him a pass because of his talent, which I consider to not be that big of a deal in the overall scheme of things. I would probably be more mellow if the true contributors I mentioned were given the credit that they were due.
 

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Better yet, consider Miles Browning, someone who was the architect of the aviation victories in the Pacific in WWII. He actually contributed to something that saved American lives, shortened WWII in the Pacific and made genuine contributions to those victories that go way beyond what any drummer in history ever accomplished. His personal flaws prevented him from attaining flag rank and he was never given the credit he should have because of those flaws. Or Alan Turing, who won the war in the Atlantic because of inconvenient personality issues (for the era). And we are arguing over a drummer who knew how to play in a super human manner. Perhaps that is why I am not impressed with Buddy and am unwilling to give him a pass because of his talent, which I consider to not be that big of a deal in the overall scheme of things. I would probably be more mellow if the true contributors I mentioned were given the credit that they were due.
Buddy was a Marine, WWII.
 

mtarrani

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Not where I was born. Brooklyn NY, just like Buddy, tough place, hard scrabble existence BITD. You fought for everything. Buddy was typical. My father and his friends were much the same. They wouldn't have blinked twice at Buddy's personality.
Brooklyn. Yeah, but my family was from the Bronx (and out name ends with a vowel), so I think I know a thing or two about hard scrabble existence, as do my family. We had a different view of true gentlemen.
 

mtarrani

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Buddy was a Marine, WWII.
... who never saw combat and who was discharged before the war ended. Not exactly a hero. On the other hand, my father did see combat and was awarded a purple heart among other medals, and my upbringing under him led me to disdain folks like BR. Just sayin'.
 
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