early Paiste preserial Formula 602 logos and timeline

[toddlittle827]

Alright folks, yours truly has pulled more arcane Paiste knowledge from the bowels of the internet. Prior to a couple weeks ago, it was thought that the "Formula 602" line was released in 1959 and that there were predecessor B20 cymbals (Super Formula 602 and "Super" in curvise script, not to be confused with the later buget SUPER) that existed in 1957 and 1958.

Doesn't look like this is the case. It is now believed Paiste B20 started in 1959 as the Super Formula 602, there was no predecessor series, it is all one continuous line with a few name changes and subsequent refinement along the way. This ad from Melos Zeitschrift in 1962 proves the Formula 602 was still called the "Super" as of mid-1962. It also shows the Paiste Standard was still the third tier Paiste with the Dixie not replacing it until 1964. The preserial Formula 602 that we all know and love was not called that or metal stamped that until at least 1963 or more likely until 1964 (I am still working on this point). Because of this discovery we are now able to date preserial 602s in a general way. See below...

 

[toddlittle827]

Alright folks, yours truly has pulled more arcane Paiste knowledge from the bowels of the internet. Prior to a couple weeks ago, it was thought that the "Formula 602" line was released in 1959 and that there were predecessor B20 cymbals (Super Formula 602 and "Super" in curvise script, not to be confused with the later buget SUPER) that existed in 1957 and 1958.

Doesn't look like this is the case. It is now believed Paiste B20 started in 1959 as the Super Formula 602, there was no predecessor series, it is all one continuous line with a few name changes and subsequent refinement. This ad from Melos Zeitschrift in 1962 proves the Formula 602 was still called the "Super" as of mid-1962. It also shows the Paiste Standard was still the third tier Paiste with the Dixie not replacing it until 1964. The preserial Formula 602 that we all know and love was not called that or metal stamped that until at least 1963 or more likely until 1964 (I am still working on this point). Because of this discovery we are now able to date preserial 602s in a general way. See below...

1959 and possibly 1960 - Super Formula 602

 

[toddlittle827]

1961 and 1962 Paiste "Super" in cursive script with Robert Paiste signature

The 1961 and 1962 dates are fully documented by multiple magazine adverts. It is possible this logo started in 1960 and lasted until 1963.

 

[toddlittle827]

1961 and 1962 Paiste "Super" in curvise script with Robert Paiste

The 1961 and 1962 dates are documented. It is possible this logo started in 1960 and lasted until 1963

1963 or more likely 1964 (still working this out) Original Formula 602 logo with "trade" under E in Paiste

 

[toddlittle827]

1963 or more likely 1964 (still working this out) Original Formula 602 logo with "trade" under E in Paiste

Common preserial Formula 602 logo 1965 (possibly 1964) until early 1972.

* the logo was changed to the "outline form" logo in-year 1972 when serial numbers and black label era ink stamping started.

 

[toddlittle827]

DynaStar Formula 602s were sold in the USA by Halifax Distribution from 1962 to early 1965 prior to Ludwig taking over exclusive North American distribution later in '65.

As an aside Dynastar/Halifax also briefly sold the Paiste Dixie and budget SUPER for a short time in 1964/5 before those lines were removed from the market due to the Ludwig deal. Why didn't Halifax carry the Stambul? Because it was already being sold in the USA as the Ludwig Paiste (3-star logo).

Arbiter Custom Formula 602s were sold in the UK through Drum City from 1962 to 1966 and possibly later in the 1960s.

 

[jptrickster]

Baffles me through all my years of collecting I’ve never come across any of these in person. There’s still time right ?!
Beautiful job on the documentation!

 

[toddlittle827]

There is one more 602 logo I have on my work laptop that I haven't figured out yet (will post later - off to the dentist). probably sold through a French or Spanish distributor like the Dynastar or Arbiter 602.

 

[toddlittle827]

The rarest 602 logo of them all... Only 1 cymbal has been found so far.

The HiFi Bronce variant. Not sure if this stamp was done for a distributor (Spain/France?) or should go somewhere in the timeline of Paiste 602 logos.

 

[JDA]

ah sweet, this is like engraved rings.. at the jewelers shop. : )
I think it's turned into jewelry the cymbal stamp;
if the rest of the build of the cymbal can be attached to the "engravement"
then it'd have 6000 times more meaning as it's dealing with musical instrument not watches and chains, rings and amulets.. (ya know.

Has to be a sound build (of the rest of the cymbal) component or else it's just engraver's paradise..for what purpose besides novelty is it worth searching for. But that's ok. Serves some purpose just not necessarily a musical one.

That's my feeling on "stamps" since day one- what's the - is there- sound build component- associated.
otherwise it's jewelers rouge

 

[jptrickster]

The rarest 602 logo of them all... Only 1 cymbal has been found so far.

The HiFi Bronce variant. Not sure if this stamp was done for a distributor (Spain/France?) or should go somewhere in the timeline of Paiste 602 logos.

Fantastic!!

 

[JDA]

I think where that word "trade" was placed is an amazing discovery. I went down and checked my 5- ps 602 (18" 19" 3-14") and all were in the (post #5) common spot.

Knowing where that "trade" is located might aid in a crime scene investigation,

 

[toddlittle827]

my guess is the switch to the common "solid form" logo happened at or around the time of the Ludwig deal.

 

[James Walker]

Thanks for all this, Todd. I'm glad to know more about my favorite line of cymbals.

 

[Tarkus]

1959 and possibly 1960 - Super Formula 602

Hi Todd
Thanks for your work on this.

Just couple of weeks ago, there was such a rare bird on German ebay. A 20 inch in good condition, about 2300 grams. Must have been like 'grand mother' of the 602s 20 inch Medium Rides

Pic from ad:

Unfortunately, the seller decided to keep it and get it lathed to become lighter.

 

[jptrickster]

Would you say more of these early Super stamps were more common in Europe than in the states? Were there any US distributers before Ludwig?

 

[Tarkus]

I think, I'm the wrong person to answer this. Since about 2 years, I was looking for early 602s, bought what I wanted (no pre-serials), and maybe saw two such 'Super Formula 602' during that time. This might have been even the same cymbal. But surely, I could have missed a lot.

 

[flatwins]

Thanks for all this, Todd. I'm glad to know more about my favorite line of cymbals.

Agreed. These are my favorite type of threads on DFO.

 

[Soulfinger]

+1!
Now I know that my 18" Medium was made around the same time as me.

 

[toddlittle827]

Would you say more of these early Super stamps were more common in Europe than in the states? Were there any US distributers before Ludwig?

Yes, the Super F602 and "Super" in cursive were most likely exclusive to Europe imo. Paistes were relatively unknown in the US prior to the deal with Ludwig in 1965.

To the best of my knowledge the Formula 602 came to the US first in 1962 (as the Dynastar Formula 602) and was distributed by a company called Halifax Dist. Co. which also owned a music store in Syracuse, NY called Bonne Music until Ludwig took over in the later part of 1965.

In the UK, the cymbals were sold by Ivor Arbiter (also starting in 1962) at Drum City in London as the Arbiter Custom Formula 602.

The early post WWII history of Paiste in the USA is as follows:

1953: Ludwig begins carrrying Paiste gongs
1956: Ludwig begins selling the Paiste Stambul as a midline cymbal called the Ludwig Paiste (3-star logo). This is first seen in the Ludwig "57" catalog which was printed in 1956.
1962: Bonne Music/Halifax Dist. starts carrying the B20 Paiste called the Dynastar Formula 602 (and Paiste gongs) while the cymbal is still known in Europe as the Super (in cursive script)
1964/5: Halifax starts selling the new Paiste Dixie and budget Paiste SUPER for a brief period of time after these lines are released
mid-1965: Ludwig takes over exclusive distribution of Paiste in North America. Bonne ceases sales of Paiste products which removes the Dixie and SUPER from the market. Ludwig carries the Formula 602 and the Stambul (now called the Ludwig Standard)
1966: Ludwig adds the Dixie (as the Paiste Stanople) to its catalogs
1969: Ludwig begins carrying the Giant Beat (released in Europe in 1967)

Now prior to 1962 the question would be, did any other individual music stores or small scale distributors import the Super 602 or things like the Zilko or Paiste Standard? Certainly possible, but no evidence has surfaced yet.