Paul Francis has been very helpful in discussions about cymbal design and supportive of my research work. Thank you Paul. I've got a few other links to his presentations about design. A good start is Cymbals 101 which was one of the key sources for sorting out bell (cup) sizes but there is lots more:Love the staccato ride at 18:33 but the whole video is really educational especially with Paul Francis who is the actual designer of the new designs for Zildjian.
I'm not a K player but, that was really quite interesting.
Since REF specifically mentions Ks I presume he is speaking about the video in the post which immediately preceded his post.REF you mean this ? Yes one month old upload; maybe old news to some
I have yet to go though this whole video and extract all the info, but there are a few things I've already noted. Kerope bells are pressed in with a shallow die, then hammered higher by Paul or an offsider. The Kerope bell info is part of "manufacture" but it prior to that it is a about design. The riffing on "manufacture" as "design" muddies the definition of design further for me. Production videos are always fun. Production is not design. And design is the original questionNote that Zildjian is the first cymbal maker to be ISO9000 certified but that means they have the procedure manuals and training in place. It doesn't mean they apply quite narrow bands of sonic variation around the master cymbal for a particular model. It means that they can tell you what the width of the band is. Paiste seem to have narrower bands.
So in the case of the Kerope what the design calls for is an integrated bell which is hammered to achieve complexity and a darker tone.So I think I know the basics of cymbal design - bells, bows, taper, and weight, hammering and lathing. What I'm not sure about is how each individual part plays a role in the cymbal sound
If you want to look at designs outside the usual box including different alloys, check out HammeraxThe point about designing cymbals is interesting to me because, in most cases it just seems to be variation on an ancient theme. "Designing" a new cymbal in house or with the help and ideas of players just stays within the ballpark of said basic shape and alloy. More bell, less bell, higher bell, lower bell, higher or lower bow, more or less shaving for thickness and shape, more or less lathing and it all alters a cymbal in nuances from the main instrument or more or less volume, spread, ping, etc.
Because of the age of "effects" that jumped from Chinas to all the stuff out there now (more variation on the theme), I would like to see the companies get into more experimentation like some of the custom guys. Different metals, alloys, shapes and stuff. Take "design" out of the box.
Indeed, Hammerax is one of the custom guys I was thinking of. They have some wild stuff. Turkish has come out with some interesting things lately. Considering there seems to be new cymbal makers coming out of Turkey and that region every year, how many more can the market hold with just the same basic ideas for products?If you want to look at designs outside the usual box including different alloys, check out Hammerax
Their web site seems to be down at the moment, but the have a Facebook presence plus there are lots of videos on YouTube
From my now updated time code list:I know in the K video he mentioned something like $10k for machinery to make new models
I've got quite a few of Craig's cymbals as well, including one rework he did for me of a Paiste Sound Creation Bright Medium into a Medium Crash (cue questions about Paiste 602 material, sheet casting, complexity, taper etc). I visited him to pick it up in person
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I remember asking him about reworking a Bosphorus Antique for me and he mentioned that the difference between the Bos alloy and his then current supplier (Masterwork) would mean a different sonic outcome. The Masterwork blanks were the reputed B25 alloy (which doesn't seem to test out as true B25). It may be that the shift to Sabian opens up more information on how more subtle differences in alloy play out in subtle differences in final cymbal sound. It may also be that Bettis will have to update his template for his auctions:
unless the distinction is that Craig is trading as an individual and Bettis as a limited liability company? Just pulling your chain Matt. I think the availability of Zildjian bronze in a hand hammered from a flat blank cymbal is another great step forward in untangling the different mix of factors producing cymbal sounds.
Huge agreement. Percussion terms, maybe all terms used for anything by different people or entities, never seem to have the same nomenclature.Thanks for the Sabian link Chilly. It has been a long time since I've had a look at their descriptions and I didn't know about this terminology section either. Paiste has similar info on their site. Part of the problem (as I keep saying) is that Sabian, Paiste, and Zildjian, et al don't all seem to agree in the user of terms, nor in the way they relate particular design choices to sonic outcomes. An older example I've got is about what a brilliant finish does
Mark Love (Sabian) says brilliant finish makes a cymbal more "glassy" sounding
UFiP says brilliant finish makes a cymbal seem "warmer"
I don't think of "glassy" and "warmer" being correlated in any way. They are different attributes. So does this difference just represent the different answers focusing on different aspects of sound? Or is my personal notion of "glassy" and "warmer" unlike what most drummers conceive these terms to mean? That was the sort of observation that got me interested, but I've never come out of the other end.
Does “Ping” mean the same thing as “stick definition”? If not can someone please describe the difference?Percussion terms, maybe all terms used for anything by different people or entities, never seem to have the same nomenclature.
Warm and glassy for the same cymbal? How?
"Ping" seems fairly normal and used by everybody.
That has always been my understanding: ping/stick definition, also effected by wood or nylon tips. Although, you can have a ride that has stick definition as a model, that is "dry" as a cymbal, and not much sting to the ping, as it were. The cymbal may just have more stick definition within a series than others.
Stick definition can exist in a dark dry/er woody context or in a bright metallic frame/work
From personal reference, I don’t use the terms mutually exchangeably.
It probably will to some people. Answers which show variation are already starting to appear.