Factory Rivets?

blueshadow

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I see it a lot in auction listings "Factory Rivets" unless you bought the cymbal new or it's a real hack job of drilling how would you know factory vs a pro job of drilling (either at a shop or just someone that knows what the heck they are doing) and does it matter that much?

Mostly an observation.
 

bongomania

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Yeah I would bet most instances are sellers trying to plead that the cymbal is not devalued by modification, without any actual basis for knowing whether it was done at the factory.

Sometimes I’ll speculate on that like if the holes are perfectly evenly spaced, and the rivets are brass, but even then I’ll say “looks like factory”.
 

zenstat

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With Zildjian cymbals there is an additional hint because Zildjian have a special tool for flaring their tube rivets. If you see tube rivets flared in that style (these are on a Beautiful Baby)


factory-flared-rivets.png



this increases the chance they are factory. If you have a Zildjian cymbal with something like brass split rivets then the holes may be factory but not the rivets themselves. Here is a different flair version (not Zildjian factory) and some people just hit them with a hammer and flatten the end (crude but they don't fall out).

rivet-flare-diy.png


Zildjian also have specific instructions on rivet number and placement, although the exact specs aren't always followed. :dontknow: You would look for 6 (occasionally 8 on larger diameters) using a 3/16" hole and for the holes to be evenly spaced and 1" in from the edge. Pass those tests and they could be factory, although it isn't clear how far back the 1" in placement was the preferred position.

So again, we can rule some out as being factory because they don't use the correct materials and tools. Proof that other cymbals with rivets are factory is elusive. And so is proof that rivet holes devalue cymbals. I amended my data collection starting December 2018 to include the number of rivet holes and how many rivets are still in place. I haven't got enough data yet to fit a statistical model where I can estimate the effect on price while also taking into account all the other factors which influence price (brand, model, diameter, production era, weight, ink status, structural condition, surface condition, seller reputation, etc). I'm not sure we will ever get a precise estimate given the amount of variation in price. The other approach is to interview a representative sample of cymbal purchasers and ask them if rivet holes (with or without rivets in them) would influence the desirability/price they would consider paying for a cymbal. You would also need to ask them about other factors which might influence them. You might at least find there is a consensus view and a consistent ordering of factors which influence price. And the drop in expected price for rivets might be $5 in which case what's the big deal? And if it were $5 then I wouldn't even pick that up in my price research because there is too much variatibiliy from other factors like condition. Please don't think $5 is a serious estimate, I just use it as a thought experiment until some proper estimation happens.
 
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zenstat

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The diversity of opinion about the status of ink (and possible effect on price)


shows that we have our work cut out for us. People sometimes act as if their personal opinion about rivets (or ink) represents the general market view. The general market view (and attendant impact on price) is made up of the people who love 'em or hate 'em or somewhere in between, and you need to know those proportions in the general market. We don't know that yet for either rivets or ink.
 
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TPC

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... and does it matter that much?
Short answer, no.

If the rivets sound good, and the cymbal is not structurally damaged, I could not care less if the rivets were installed at the factory. In fact, sometimes the factories, as Steve mentioned, would follow a certain preconceived pattern of holes on every cymbal of a certain type, whereas it’s generally preferable to experiment for a while with various rivet placements prior to drilling. A three-rivet cluster may sound best, for example, it may not.

I’ve drilled dozens of cymbals and I believe each one had a particular rivet configuration that worked best. Some cymbals had a slight low hum mid bow that needed to be muted a bit, for example, so a higher number of rivets half way in worked best. Experimentation is key.

Factory? Nah.
 

Gcort49

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I drill cymbals for rivets for myself and others. Have done it for years. No difference between factory nor semi-pro doing it, if the one doing it is competent in doing it

If any difference, it would be in type rivets, split or tube. I believe factory use tube rivets. Every factory riveted cymbal I had was tubed. I use split myself, due to ease of removal and replacement when desired.

I believe 4 rivets should be the max (personal). More than that, it begins to add unnecessary weight, IMO
The style rivet, brass or steel, would be an important difference and personal preference. I used both, and have found to prefer steel rivets over brass.
I always like referring folks to The Cymbal Book, by Hugo Pinksterbroer. It has a very good section on rivets.
A MUST book for all Cymbalholics
 

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blueshadow

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Great info guys and really what I expected as an answer and I agree....agreed before asking, but thought it would be a good subject to discuss
 

zenstat

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Just catching up on some price tracking I spotted this. 19" 1760g late 50s SSA with 6 rivets which the seller says are factory. I believe him but note that they are placed a bit further in than 1". Closer to 2" by my visual estamation on the photo. I can just make out the factory style star shaped splaying of the rivets. The rivets placed further in than 1" seems to be a 50s thing but I don't yet have enough evidence to be sure, nor to spot when a change occurred. The other thing about this 19" is that it seems to have a 4" bell (small die) rather than the 5" bell (medium die) which is most common on 19" cymbals. I compared the photos to my own 1780g 50s 19" (which does have a 5" bell) as well as scaling on the photo itself, but to really be satisfied I would do a bit more visual comparison with other examples in my photo archives.

19-1760-top.jpg



19-1760-bot.jpg



19-1760-stamp.jpg
 


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