Fake Spizzichinos on eBay

zenstat

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JazzDrumGuy said:
1) There are videos of Roberto on YT and if I recall, in one of them, he etches his signature onto a cymbal, so that could be authentic.
2) Oddly, the auction ended early for $1.00......I think it said error in the listing.
Yes some of Roberto's cymbals have an etched signature and other things (like Ka). But given that not all have a signature that isn't diagnostic of anything in particular.

Unfortunately "error in listing" tells us nothing about the eBay outcome. For example, these three very different outcomes

sold privately off eBay
take down due to eBay action on the scam reports
they will come back later when the heat dies down

would look the same. I'm a bit of a student of auction outcome codes as part of my extensive pricing research. That's how I've become aware how untrustworthy the outcome codes are.
 

CaptainCrunch

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The thing that befuddles me is: How many people reported these as fakes and they STILL didn't get yanked - he ended his own auction and is just gonna relist them later.

Ebay has an inherent conflict of interest here. Yes, dozens of people are screaming that "X" item is fake, but they'll make a couple hundred bucks in fees. Of COURSE they're going to lean a little bit on the scales. It's not an issue I see improving on it's own.
 

mbettis

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CaptainCrunch said:
...How many people reported these as fakes and they STILL didn't get yanked - he ended his own auction and is just gonna relist them later.....
Yep. And, there is a damn good chance that the only reason he ended the auction early is because he got an offer to sell them outside of eBay. I bet those fakes are already winging their way to some unsuspecting drummer.

Later,
Matt
 

b/o 402

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Gcort49 said:
No ink, and no close up of a die stamp. Tell me again why anyone is to believe Roberto had something to do with these?

Zenstat, or anybody else - do you have any images of the Wuhan Spizz markings? I haven't found any on the web. Such images would help, I think, in identifying counterfeits.
Thanks!
 

hardbat

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The stamp on my Spizz is different than the stamps I always see posted. And it absolutely isn't a fake because I went to Italy and bought it directly from Roberto himself. Here is what mine looks like:
1.jpg

The stamp on the snare he made for me is more like the others I've seen:
2.JPG
 

sonusseeker

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hardbat said:
The stamp on my Spizz is different than the stamps I always see posted. And it absolutely isn't a fake because I went to Italy and bought it directly from Roberto himself. Here is what mine looks like:
1.jpg

The stamp on the snare he made for me is more like the others I've seen:
2.JPG
...did the other cymbal's at roberto's factory also have your stamp #1?...or stamp #2?...
 

hardbat

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sonusseeker said:
...did the other cymbal's at roberto's factory also have your stamp #1?...or stamp #2?...
Sorry, that was over 20 years ago. I only just now realized that these two stamps were different!
 

sonusseeker

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hardbat said:
...did the other cymbal's at roberto's factory also have your stamp #1?...or stamp #2?...
Sorry, that was over 20 years ago. I only just now realized that these two stamps were different!
...appreciate your reply...i would suppose that roberto's stamps could easily be duplicated and applied to imitation spizz'es by a dedicated forger, given the high prices authentic spizz'es are now commanding...
 

zenstat

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hardbat said:
The stamp on my Spizz is different than the stamps I always see posted. And it absolutely isn't a fake because I went to Italy and bought it directly from Roberto himself. Here is what mine looks like:
1.jpg

The stamp on the snare he made for me is more like the others I've seen:
2.JPG
Very interesting one that Cymbals Factory Spizz stamp. Roberto is said to have dropped the Spizz name once the Wuhan unauthorized Spizz cymbals thing happened. And the CymbalS Factory is the earlier version associated with the Chinese sourced B20. I haven't been particularly thorough in collecting examples, but I presume that your Cymbals Factory Spizz stamp is going to be early. Maybe earlier than the Cymbals Factory Spizzichino stamp. Hardbat, It would be helpful to tie that purchase of yours up with the 1990 date (in the Luciano book quoted below) which is given for the Spizz name being abandoned in favor of Spizzichino.
 

zenstat

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b/o 402 said:
No ink, and no close up of a die stamp. Tell me again why anyone is to believe Roberto had something to do with these?

Zenstat, or anybody else - do you have any images of the Wuhan Spizz markings? I haven't found any on the web. Such images would help, I think, in identifying counterfeits.
Thanks!
I had a quick look to see what I had in terms of Wuhan Spizz ink and I didn't spot anything in my archives. But I know I've seen some. As far as I remember the markings were all ink and there wasn't a pressed in die stamp.

You can see the ink here in this thread: http://www.drumforum.org/index.php?/topic/121377-wuhan-spizzi/

Note that franke's story in that thread there is quite abbreviated. Roberto did visit the factory in Wuhan not just commission a few blanks. From an interview with Roberto written up in Luca Luciano's 2012 book Italian Vintage Drums and Cymbals p118 (first edition):

In 1989 Spizzichino visited Wuhan in China, where he had already been to research raw materials, thanks to Bespeco's distributor, Paul Real, and begins to teach the Chinese how to work the cymbals. Roberto sat in the midst of fifty Chinese people and spoke to them of the curvature, or the hammering, and how to obtain the desired sound.

From this experience the Wuhan/Spizz cymbals are distributed, sold without consent of Roberto.
 

hardbat

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zenstat said:
Very interesting one that Cymbals Factory Spizz stamp. Roberto is said to have dropped the Spizz name once the Wuhan unauthorized Spizz cymbals thing happened. And the CymbalS Factory is the earlier version associated with the Chinese sourced B20. I haven't been particularly thorough in collecting examples, but I presume that your Cymbals Factory Spizz stamp is going to be early. Maybe earlier than the Cymbals Factory Spizzichino stamp. Hardbat, It would be helpful to tie that purchase of yours up with the 1990 date (in the Luciano book quoted below) which is given for the Spizz name being abandoned in favor of Spizzichino.
My timeline is a bit different. I first met Roberto in 1994 in Pescia. The company "Centrorame" was letting him use their foundry. At that time he was having trouble getting blanks, so he only had 2 or 3 cymbals, and wasn't willing to sell them because he needed to keep them for samples. He didn't mention any trouble with China.

The second time was in 1996, when I returned to Pescia. He was still at Centrorame, but he had lots of cymbals, most of which were made from Chinese blanks. He also explained to me about how Wuhan was using his name against his will. I bought a 21" cymbal from him (the one with the pictured logo). So that logo MUST have been stamped into the cymbal between 1994 and 1996.

It is possible that when I first visited in 1994, that Wuhan had already tried their "dirty trick", but he never mentioned it. On the second trip, he mentioned it quite a lot. So it sure sounded like it had happened in between those two years (1994 and 1996).

While there in 1996, I saw his galvanized steel drums, and asked him to make me a snare drum. Over the next 3 to 4 months he made the drum and shipped it to me. That is the second label in my pictures above. So it would seem possible that the timeframe of my two visits would represent roughly the timeframe that he switched from the Spizz stamp to the Spizzichino stamp.

Roberto was a truly nice host and we kept in touch by email from that time up until he passed away. He never told me he was sick, and I didn't know. He always said his dream was to have a little "stall" in downtown Manhattan where he could make custom cymbals for all the jazz drummers there. He was an excellent drummer - I saw him play one of those evenings with his quartet (even got to sit in, using the cymbal I ended up buying). I have pictures of both visits up at this website:
http://athena.ecs.csus.edu/~gordonvs/spizz.html
 

zenstat

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Thanks for the additional info. I haven't spent a lot of time trying to gather info on Roberto, but I have collected up a few bits and pieces as I come across them. There are already a number of inconsistencies between what Luca Luciano has to say and what Pinksterboer has to say. Alas, the record isn't very complete. It is a low priority for me compared to some other projects and there are a few others who are much better acquainted with his work. Meanwhile, I'll just keep indexing what I find and hope to pass it on to somebody else some day.
 

deepsoulradio

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mbettis said:
Thanks for the warning. Just for future reference (I know virtually nothing about Spizzichinos), how can you tell?
Roberto's cymbals are what inspired me to become a cymbalsmith. I am very familiar with his work, and have owned over 40 of his cymbals. It's not scientific, but that's how I can tell.

Notice how you can discern each and every hammer strike on the tops of these hats? That is not what real Spizzichino's look like.

Thanks,
Matt
Dude, you rock.
 

JazzDrumGuy

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Interesting. I thought the latest batches said "SPIZZ" on them. I am curious as to how this cymbal appears to have the right factory logo stamped into it?
 

mbettis

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The "Spizz" cymbals by Universal Percussion were not fakes, just a very bad and disrespectful idea.

Saluda had a fake stamp produced. That's easy to do. Copying the rest of Roberto's craftsmanship, however, is damn near impossible.

Notice how you can zoom in on the photos in their other cymbal listings, but not the ones for this fake Spizzichino? Why do you think that would be?

Matt
 

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