Finished My Comparison of 60's Supraphonic to 2020 Version

kenshireen1

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I have some interesting results.
Both snares had new ambassador heads. The 60's snare had Evans 360 reso head and the 2020 version had Ludwig Weathermaster.
Snare wires were original to each drum.

The newer snare weighed 7.6 pounds while the older one weighed exactly 7.0 (I didn't weigh the shell with everything removed).
The hoops on the newer one are definitely heavier. I didn't weight them but it was easy to tell by holding.
The newer snare had what appeared to be a heavier throw but it did not have a muffler like the older one. So I considered it a wash.

I used a Drumdial and both drums had the same tension. Batter was around 91 in the center of the snare. both drums were tuned correctly.
There was a slight 1 point difference; the newer snare being a bit higher.
Reso heads were around 84/85 around the edges.

I fine tuned the batter heads so that my Iphone read G3 196 hertz on both..
I have attached pictures of the sound wave. The first is the older snare. (8525)

With the snares off and I hit the both heads. The newer snare sounded a bit more solid, the older sounded a bit thinner. This could have been the result of the added weight
in the hoops. Both sounded fine with the snares on.

Who knows what's the story with the hoops. I would have thought they would be the same.

Overall, not much difference but I probably preferred the newer snare. The older one sounded a bit "thinner"
IMG_8525.PNG
IMG_8525.PNG
 

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Seb77

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I would guess one difference between thinner and thicker hoops is in the rimshot and cross rim volume. A softer rimshot, one that's not much louder than a regular stroke, can be good in some contexts.
 

kenshireen1

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Shouldn't the heads be the same? I'm not a fan of the Evans heads as they feel different and sound different than Remos....that's why I'm asking..... also, where is the sound file?
The Batter heads were the same. not the reso.
I will redo the test with the same reso today
 

kenshireen1

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Are the hoops on both drums steel and the same thickness?
Does the newer drum have lug gaskets?
Does the newer drum have mojo?
Both hoops are steel but the newer one appears to be a bit thicker. Definitely weighs more
The new snare has heavier black gaskets compared to older which has the very thin metal.

Will redo tests with same reso today and weigh the hoops
 

drumtimejohn

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Thanks for your efforts and sharing it with us. Ive found an “all things held constant” helpful in comparing shells. In addition to using the same heads, using the same wires and hoops can give the best results. I share the belief that the heavy 2.3 vs 1.6mm hoops is the primary source of sound difference.
 

kenshireen1

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I did some additional tests today. Very time consuming.
As I mentioned that old snare weighs 7 pounds and the new one comes in at 7 pounds 10 ounces.
I weighted the tension rods/washers and the old set weighed 97 grams while the new ones with the larger washes weighed 91 grams. When I weighed the hoops the old batter hoop weighed 435 grams while the new one weighed 645 grams. That is quite a difference.
Using my DD I set both batter heads at 87.5 at the lugs and it was 87.5 at the center(which it should have been). The reso heads were set at 85.5 all around. Both drums read 208 on my iphone which is about G#.

With the snares off they sound very very close. With the snares on you could tell the difference but this is probably the result of the difference in weight in the hoop. The older one sounder more open while the newer one more focused. I will update some simple sound files after my Iphone is charged.

Even though the batter heads were the same, the reso heads were different. Evans 300 Vs Weathermaster.
I believe they are both 3M. Snare wires can also contribute to the difference
 

shuffle

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Its the hoops,except if the original 1.6 hoops were brass,that changes the sound on the drum.
 

kenshireen1

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I also noticed that with the Evans 360 reso that the hoop sits closer to the top of the drumhead than the ludwig weathermaster
 

drumstuff66

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I also noticed that with the Evans 360 reso that the hoop sits closer to the top of the drumhead than the ludwig weathermaster
I noticed the same thing on my 90's Black Beauty using a Remo snare side. Several DFOers told me the Weathermaster has a shallower collar than other snare side heads. I now use them on all my snares. I think Remo also makes a shallow collar head though it might be special order (?)
 

backtodrum

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I did some additional tests today. Very time consuming.
As I mentioned that old snare weighs 7 pounds and the new one comes in at 7 pounds 10 ounces.
I weighted the tension rods/washers and the old set weighed 97 grams while the new ones with the larger washes weighed 91 grams. When I weighed the hoops the old batter hoop weighed 435 grams while the new one weighed 645 grams. That is quite a difference.
Using my DD I set both batter heads at 87.5 at the lugs and it was 87.5 at the center(which it should have been). The reso heads were set at 85.5 all around. Both drums read 208 on my iphone which is about G#.

With the snares off they sound very very close. With the snares on you could tell the difference but this is probably the result of the difference in weight in the hoop. The older one sounder more open while the newer one more focused. I will update some simple sound files after my Iphone is charged.

Even though the batter heads were the same, the reso heads were different. Evans 300 Vs Weathermaster.
I believe they are both 3M. Snare wires can also contribute to the difference
Is one drum preferable to you over the other, or just slightly different but nothing objectionable one drum over the other? I'm just curious if you feelings have changed?
 

kenshireen1

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If I did a blind test I would probably go with the newer version. But, I have owned the 60's snare since 1970 and it has it's own mojo. Also, it has a muffler which I do not use but it is there. The difference is very slight.
The newer snare is a bit more focused and I'm sure that has to do with the heavier rims. I could always switch them around to see if in fact that is the root cause but I have spent enough time on this already
 

backtodrum

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I have a newer supra 402 that I ordered a new Ludwig muffler for and installed it using the same location and measurements as my early 70s supra 400. I use it all the time to dial it in to a room. As I said previously I order new Ludwig mufflers and install them on all my snares Ludwig or not. They are useful to me and I can't understand them not installing mufflers anymore other than cost savings, but to me, just charge more for the drum then... but that's a debate for a different day. I was just wondering if you felt there was a difference because earlier in this thread I did a similar comparison to yours and frankly there wasn't enough difference to say one way or the other that the older supras sound better than the new supras vice a versa. I can't hear enough difference myself to find one more or less desirable over the other. They both sound very good and do the job they are intended to do...
 

kenshireen1

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I have a newer supra 402 that I ordered a new Ludwig muffler for and installed it using the same location and measurements as my early 70s supra 400. I use it all the time to dial it in to a room. As I said previously I order new Ludwig mufflers and install them on all my snares Ludwig or not. They are useful to me and I can't understand them not installing mufflers anymore other than cost savings, but to me, just charge more for the drum then... but that's a debate for a different day. I was just wondering if you felt there was a difference because earlier in this thread I did a similar comparison to yours and frankly there wasn't enough difference to say one way or the other that the older supras sound better than the new supras vice a versa. I can't hear enough difference myself to find one more or less desirable over the other. They both sound very good and do the job they are intended to do...
Agreed that they both do the job..very little difference. But the difference in the weight of the hoops does reduced a bit of the overtones on the newer one.
 

JazzDrumGuy

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Very cool about the old one being owned since before I was around. I still think the bottom head has something to do with it. The question is is the modern one pitted like the old ones?
 

Seb77

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The newer snare is a bit more focused and I'm sure that has to do with the heavier rims. I could always switch them around to see if in fact that is the root cause but I have spent enough time on this already
I would remove the rubber gaskets before doing any further comparisons. They muffle the shell sound, almost like piece of moongel on a head.
 

backtodrum

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When did Ludwig start with the lug gaskets? Mine is a newer keystone badge 402 and I bought it used but it was in perfect condition. I suspect it was purchased new sometime after 2010 and 2015 when I bought it from a little music store in a little town in Colorado, it didn't have any lug gaskets leading me to believe they were probably removed by the previous owner. Does anyone here know the approximate year they started putting the gaskets behind the lugs. Seems to me I can remember someone stating on here or somewhere or I read that Ludwig started installing them to offset the lug splay that they were being criticised for . I'm just curious?
 


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