First internet rehearsal last night...

JDA

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Last night, my jazz quartet rehearsed over the internet for the first time. The covid restrictions here in Sweden make it unviable to meet up in person right now for playing, so this was our only option.
So, if you would have had the entire band in person in your quarters or in another's room or house..in-person How many people would have been assembled.
 

RIDDIM

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Have not tried Jamulus. If you play uptempo numbers or interact with a soloist, is there latency? Sadly, I have found that to be the case with Jamkazam, which is why I no longer use it. I'm about to dive deeper into the Jacktrip world, via Jackstreamer, which has significantly less latency but can be a bit more challenging for all to set up, initially.
 

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Interesting! looks like it is not available for IOS though. The developers web site recommends a wired internet connection and headphones to reduce echos...
 

MagnusNordén

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Have not tried Jamulus. If you play uptempo numbers or interact with a soloist, is there latency? Sadly, I have found that to be the case with Jamkazam, which is why I no longer use it. I'm about to dive deeper into the Jacktrip world, via Jackstreamer, which has significantly less latency but can be a bit more challenging for all to set up, initially.
Latency was not a problem. However, to keep the volume down because of my neighbours we didn’t play real uptempo tunes.
 

dcrigger

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Yes, there is a delay. You can see a figure for it in the app. I think my connection was something like 30-40 ms in total. The guitarist had even less lag. It really wasn't a problem.

/Magnus
Trying to put the whole tech picture together on this - so besides everyone having fast broadband and using direct ethernet connection (no wi-fi) that leaves the question... How far away were your playing partners from each other? How far apart are your houses/apartments in miles... or rather kilometers. Approximately, of course. 2km? 10km? 50km?
 

MagnusNordén

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Trying to put the whole tech picture together on this - so besides everyone having fast broadband and using direct ethernet connection (no wi-fi) that leaves the question... How far away were your playing partners from each other? How far apart are your houses/apartments in miles... or rather kilometers. Approximately, of course. 2km? 10km? 50km?
We all live in Stockholm. I’d say 10 km is a fair estimation of the longest distance between any two of us.
 

dcrigger

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We all live in Stockholm. I’d say 10 km is a fair estimation of the longest distance between any two of us.
Thanks for that quick response. In American-speak, that's about 6 miles. Which for most, is pretty darn close.

While not wanting to be the sobering voice in the thread - that's not great news for most people eyeing doing this.

The rule of thumb is that any latency above 30ms can be problematic - depending on the music being played and the musicians playing it. Dealing with latency between players at 30ms and below is something that we often deal with in the physical world. For example two players 30 ft apart will experience 27ms of delay between hearing each other (I'm talking acoustically with no monitor speakers). 20 ft will be 18ms.

This is one reason why symphony orchestras can never get all that "tight" rhythmically - while a jazz or funk crammed onto a 12-15 stage can be wicked tight.

So 30-40 ms is considered "problematic" - maybe workable, maybe not. Much above that and any normal rhythmic playing as an ensemble becomes near impossible. Groups singing Gregorian chants can get away with somewhat hire numbers - but anything with drum set... no way.

Since you were in the "maybe workable, but problematic" range with everyone inside of a 6-7 mile circle (less data handoffs and just simply less cable to travel) - this doesn't bode well for most.

Which all seems consistent with the myriad of other experiments I've read and heard about with trying to do this.

For now, we seem to be living in the age of the remote overdub.
 

scaramanga

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Thanks for that quick response. In American-speak, that's about 6 miles. Which for most, is pretty darn close.

While not wanting to be the sobering voice in the thread - that's not great news for most people eyeing doing this.

The rule of thumb is that any latency above 30ms can be problematic - depending on the music being played and the musicians playing it. Dealing with latency between players at 30ms and below is something that we often deal with in the physical world. For example two players 30 ft apart will experience 27ms of delay between hearing each other (I'm talking acoustically with no monitor speakers). 20 ft will be 18ms.

This is one reason why symphony orchestras can never get all that "tight" rhythmically - while a jazz or funk crammed onto a 12-15 stage can be wicked tight.

So 30-40 ms is considered "problematic" - maybe workable, maybe not. Much above that and any normal rhythmic playing as an ensemble becomes near impossible. Groups singing Gregorian chants can get away with somewhat hire numbers - but anything with drum set... no way.

Since you were in the "maybe workable, but problematic" range with everyone inside of a 6-7 mile circle (less data handoffs and just simply less cable to travel) - this doesn't bode well for most.

Which all seems consistent with the myriad of other experiments I've read and heard about with trying to do this.

For now, we seem to be living in the age of the remote overdub.
I've been wrapping my head around this for months, and banging my head against the physical structure of semi-rural internet. Even peer to peer, everything I send down my wire has to hit a server 60 miles away before it can get to my bandmate two blocks away. I've tried Jamulus, JackTrip, Sonobus (easiest to set up), Listento and even a few others to no avail. We're thinking of collectivizing our local music community and partnering with a local ISP to set up some kind of bespoke rehearsal network.
 

MagnusNordén

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What was the Kit and cymbals?
The bass drum is from my nesting kit, which was made in Germany from 1970s Slingerland concert toms. It is 16 inches. The snare drum is a 14x5 Premier Modern Classic Craviotto Solid Shell 8-lugger. The ride is a paper thin 20” Old stamp K Istanbul from the 1940s, I think. It has an extremely small bell and weighs ca 1550 grams. The hats are 15” Old stamps, probably from the 1950s. They are thin, some 985 grams each.

/Magnus
 

MagnusNordén

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Thanks for that quick response. In American-speak, that's about 6 miles. Which for most, is pretty darn close.

While not wanting to be the sobering voice in the thread - that's not great news for most people eyeing doing this.

The rule of thumb is that any latency above 30ms can be problematic - depending on the music being played and the musicians playing it. Dealing with latency between players at 30ms and below is something that we often deal with in the physical world. For example two players 30 ft apart will experience 27ms of delay between hearing each other (I'm talking acoustically with no monitor speakers). 20 ft will be 18ms.

This is one reason why symphony orchestras can never get all that "tight" rhythmically - while a jazz or funk crammed onto a 12-15 stage can be wicked tight.

So 30-40 ms is considered "problematic" - maybe workable, maybe not. Much above that and any normal rhythmic playing as an ensemble becomes near impossible. Groups singing Gregorian chants can get away with somewhat hire numbers - but anything with drum set... no way.

Since you were in the "maybe workable, but problematic" range with everyone inside of a 6-7 mile circle (less data handoffs and just simply less cable to travel) - this doesn't bode well for most.

Which all seems consistent with the myriad of other experiments I've read and heard about with trying to do this.

For now, we seem to be living in the age of the remote overdub.
For us it was much better than not playing together. Also, broadband here is quite fast and well developed. On the whole, this is a crutch, not a solution.
 

ThomasL

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Hi Magnus! Have you posted about the cymbals before? Perhaps a sound file of the ride? Don't want to hijack this thread (too much).
 

dcrigger

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For us it was much better than not playing together. Also, broadband here is quite fast and well developed. On the whole, this is a crutch, not a solution.
Oh absolutely - I get it. And what I wrote wasn't meant to disparage what you were doing. and how/why you were doing it. I think it's great you guys were able to get it work - as like you wrote, a crutch to limp through these trying times.

I was just pointing out, that sad to say, your probably excellent broadband and close proximity to each other pretty much confirms the degree to which this won't work at any acceptable level at all for most folks. The broadband aspect can be solved for most folks that can afford it (here in the states, depending where you live) - but there's just no getting around the distance parameter - that's just hard physics.

But you've shown that is at least workable for those within close enough proximity of each other.
 


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