Gig pay

[Houndog]

Did I miss where this NYE gig is ?

 

[boslaw]

Hampton Beach NH - you gonna come and watch

Happy Thanksgiving all!

 

[1988fxlr]

Then that's a strawman argument. Every single post has said that you have to adjust for where you live. The OP (and many responses) are living in major metropolitan areas.

Not being wiseass here. You ever been to New Hampshire? Its a beautiful state, but major metropolitan area is a stretch. Think of it as the equivalent of a Mendocino coast town

 

[bpaluzzi]

Not being wiseass here. You ever been to New Hampshire? Its a beautiful state, but major metropolitan area is a stretch. Think of it as the equivalent of a Mendocino coast town

Yup -- they've since clarified where they're at. I was going on the original location mentioned, which was "Boston area".

 

[Whitten]

I will however defend bands that make a lot less depending on the area they play.

Fine, I'm sure bands in India and Thailand earn a lot less than $250 a gig. But last time I looked gas prices were the same in rural areas of America, often more. Health costs the same. Drum head prices, sticks, new drums and cymbals.
So I UNDERSTAND why musicians in rural areas are paid less than big city players, but they should fight for better pay, not except what they are given. That's how all workers achieved better pay, by banding together collectively and fighting for more.
Also, it doesn't have to be personal. For me it's a philosophical debate, how do you value yourself in a time of increased competition, where there is a widening gap between powerful entrepreneurs and the 'workers'.
In the opening post I was asked my opinion on $250 for working on NYE. I gave my opinion. Since then it has not been about this specific person and their specific gig. It's been about whether to stick together and support each other's right to fair pay, or whether if you already have a decent pay check in another job, and you just like to play and have fun, it's ok to be underpaid by bar owners, event promoters etc.
If we are all being under paid to make something happen that's fine, but most of the time the event promoter is heading off on their South Pacific cruise on the 2nd of January, while we're going back to work to fill the car and buy the next batch of drum heads.

 

[Whitten]

Hampton Beach NH - you gonna come and watch

For example NYE 2022/23 at Ashworth By The Sea Hotel, Hampton Beach: dinner and dancing is $175 per person, overnight packages start at $498 per couple. I presume alcohol is extra.

 

[bassanddrum84]

Fine, I'm sure bands in India and Thailand earn a lot less than $250 a gig. But last time I looked gas prices were the same in rural areas of America, often more. Health costs the same. Drum head prices, sticks, new drums and cymbals.
So I UNDERSTAND why musicians in rural areas are paid less than big city players, but they should fight for better pay, not except what they are given. That's how all workers achieved better pay, by banding together collectively and fighting for more.
Also, it doesn't have to be personal. For me it's a philosophical debate, how do you value yourself in a time of increased competition, where there is a widening gap between powerful entrepreneurs and the 'workers'.
In the opening post I was asked my opinion on $250 for working on NYE. I gave my opinion. Since then it has not been about this specific person and their specific gig. It's been about whether to stick together and support each other's right to fair pay, or whether if you already have a decent pay check in another job, and you just like to play and have fun, it's ok to be underpaid by bar owners, event promoters etc.
If we are all being under paid to make something happen that's fine, but most of the time the event promoter is heading off on their South Pacific cruise on the 2nd of January, while we're going back to work to fill the car and buy the next batch of drum heads.

How do you demand more money ina town with a population of 1000 people? Some of the places I personally play are that small. Most are over that but you can’t demand anything from these little farm town bars. They don’t make as much as it is, so for holidays asking 3k+ isn’t gonna happen. Like I’ve stated by all means you think you can get more come on down. Don’t get me wrong I make over 100 per gig on a normal night and about 200 on most holidays. I’m also the drummer that gets the calls in my area to fill in for 99% of bands or others trying to start bands I’m the go to guy to call. I might be undervaluing myself but in my area you or anyone else isn’t gonna demand nothing from anyone. Our rule of thumb is we go up 100$ every year.


Let me add we’ve had bands from nashvill and Chicago and California come I’m thinking they were gonna demand more money guess what happens? They either don’t get booked or have to play for a door charge. Guess what happens then? They don’t make squat because no one knows who they’re in my area and they’ll go across the street and see a familiar band for free.

 

[spaeth]

A small detail that seems to be getting talked around is it is a 15 piece band. They are being paid almost $4000 for the night. If I am understanding right, that doesn’t seem like terribly low pay, just needing to be split too many ways.

 

[Whitten]

Yeah, if everyone needs to be paid $250 they need to reduce the size of the band or charge a higher fee.

 

[DBT]

Ultimately we are living in a dog eat dog world . No one cares about someone’s overhead or anything else , just the bottom line unfortunately . It comes down to being able to rest your head on the pillow at night and being able to live with the choices we make . The only control we have is to except or decline . That applies to any industry . I’ve done work for the Head of CBS Records in the 80’s who’s wife wanted silk lined padded walls in the master suite we built at over $100 Sq. Yard just for the silk , padding and backer and they were some of the most generous people I ever worked for and I’ve worked for a multi Grammy winning Artist who was the coldest , cheapest person I ever worked for yet she demanded the excellence we gave her even with beating me down on change orders . Then there’s the little old lady who lived in a beat up one bedroom cottage living off social security who couldn’t afford spit but needed badly serious repairs and I supplied all the materials and told her to just keep my crew in lunch and coffee , that was the payment . Unless you are part of a very strong union ( not many left ) or a very famous lead singer that has his or her name in front of the band everything IS a sliding scale . Again , just ask some of those co founding band members who years later where given a choice to give up a share or don’t tour and record because that person has built a successful solo career , only to be offered backing pay . Where is the respect and loyalty in that ? Those bands more time then not made that artist . If it wasn’t for the bands that play those small spilled beer , sticky floored places where would musicians as a whole be ? You’d better have a resume as long as Jim or Kenny if you expect to right you’re own ticket and demand X,Y or Z . Good for the little guy that goes out and keeps it real with the hope and dreams of maybe stepping in it through grind , hard work , love and passion .

 

[Lamontsdad]

See the thread about gross generalizations...

 

[bassanddrum84]

Ultimately we are living in a dog eat dog world . No one cares about someone’s overhead or anything else , just the bottom line unfortunately . It comes down to being able to rest your head on the pillow at night and being able to live with the choices we make . The only control we have is to except or decline . That applies to any industry . I’ve done work for the Head of CBS Records in the 80’s who’s wife wanted silk lined padded walls in the master suite we built at over $100 Sq. Yard just for the silk , padding and backer and they were some of the most generous people I ever worked for and I’ve worked for a multi Grammy winning Artist who was the coldest , cheapest person I ever worked for yet she demanded the excellence we gave her even with beating me down on change orders . Then there’s the little old lady who lived in a beat up one bedroom cottage living off social security who couldn’t afford spit but needed badly serious repairs and I supplied all the materials and told her to just keep my crew in lunch and coffee , that was the payment . Unless you are part of a very strong union ( not many left ) or a very famous lead singer that has his or her name in front of the band everything IS a sliding scale . Again , just ask some of those co founding band members who years later where given a choice to give up a share or don’t tour and record because that person has built a successful solo career , only to be offered backing pay . Where is the respect and loyalty in that ? Those bands more time then not made that artist . If it wasn’t for the bands that play those small spilled beer , sticky floored places where would musicians as a whole be ? You’d better have a resume as long as Jim or Kenny if you expect to right you’re own ticket and demand X,Y or Z . Good for the little guy that goes out and keeps it real with the hope and dreams of maybe stepping in it through grind , hard work , love and passion .

Amen brotha I sleep very well at night lol

 

[Whitten]

Let me add we’ve had bands from nashvill and Chicago and California come I’m thinking they were gonna demand more money guess what happens? They either don’t get booked or have to play for a door charge. Guess what happens then? They don’t make squat because no one knows who they’re in my area and they’ll go across the street and see a familiar band for free.

I wouldn't travel if that was the case.
Why would anyone travel long distances to get paid $100, or $250?
If your income barely covers your expenses, or you are working at below average wage, you ARE funding someone else's nice life. That is the thing to remember here.
I had a house with a vineyard attached. Year one I invested in vineyard upgrades, at the end of the year the winery paid me for the grapes and it didn't cover my costs. Year two, we had bad weather, the harvest was down and I didn't cover costs. Year three the winery asked me to hard prune, reduce grape tonnage to increase quality. I did it, after harvest I was paid and it didn't cover my costs. The wine that year won multiple awards.
In the end - it would have been better to not do any of the work, not have any of the stress, and just throw a few hundred dollars on the fire at the end of the summer. I was enriching someone else's business and life, and paying for the pleasure.
That was a huge lesson learned.

 

[Whitten]

Amen brotha I sleep very well at night

Because you're 'living in a dog eat dog world'?

 

[DBT]

Amen brotha I sleep very well at night lol

As you should and deserve . Total respect .

 

[DBT]

Because you're 'living in a dog eat dog world'?

It’s not that simple . Sometimes you have to pay the piper to get too the next opportunity . It’s called paying dues . Wasted time is doing nothing at all sometimes . Peace and love to all on Thanksgiving .

 

[owr]

I've avoided jumping back into this - but figure I have one point to make that I haven't really seen covered. This isn't really directed at you personally Chris, but you did bring up the sticking together part which I think is a good launching point. I do appreciate and agree with most of what you've contributed throughout this discussion.

Speaking for the weekend warriors here, or at least a chunk of them, I'd like to try and express our perspective and why conversations like this rub us the wrong way. Music for me has always been one of my #1 loves, where I get solace both from attending live shows, as well as occasionally getting to perform. For various reasons, I was not able to make it the focus of my career. Instead I find myself in my mid to late 40s, the sole bread winner responsible for supporting my wife and young daughter. I have a good professional day job, I work with good people and am paid well after many years of learning my craft, gaining experience and building a solid reputation. But that has lead me to carry a tremendous amount of responsibility, pressure, stress and long hours. Some of the work is rewarding, but most of it these days is the slog one has to deal with when they rise in their organization. Its ever present, even when I'm on "vacation" or sick, and its the biggest challenge in my life to not bring that home and project it on my family. I'm grateful for the opportunity, but it has come at a very real cost.

At the end of the day there is very little time for anything that feeds my soul, or brings me joy outside of the satisfaction of fulfilling my responsibilities. Its ok, I'm just at that point in my life and there is light at the end of the tunnel. But what I do get comfort in is in the 15 minutes on average I get to practice and play music at night. I have a new original group I'm working with but it's slow going. Between all of our commitments we haven't found a time to rehearse for 3 weeks. Soon we'll have our material together enough to start playing some shows, and given the 10-20 close friends we'll probably be able to coerce to show up we are not focused at all on making any real $. For bands like us you can almost think of it that we are lucky we don't have to pay to rent out a local bar to entertain ourselves and our friends for an evening. If we get to get our rocks off on an off night, make a couple $ to pay for heads and a few beers, and put a couple more $ in the pockets of the locals working and running the places than they would normally get on an off-night, then I'll take some pride in that as well.

What really rubs me the wrong way is when I drop in a thread like this and read comments along the lines that guys like me are the problem, the reason that the "pros" can't make a living. Again, I haven't gotten that from you Chris, but there is plenty of that in this thread. It baffles my mind that we get thrown under the bus like that, especially when it's followed up with a call for solidarity and sticking together. Sticking together goes both ways, the folks who have the luxury of making music their passion and core focus could do a lot to encourage and support the rest of us. I used to see that in my town and think it's still out there. I remember my first public gig early in my 20s and we had a huge turnout of friends, including one of the more accomplished local "pros". I remember going up to him during set break and thanking him for coming out and he said something along the lines of "You always come out to my shows and support me, there was no way I was going to miss this".

The way I see it, outside of the top tier successful musicians who make their own terms, the more regional pros we're all focused on fall into two categories. There are the truly talented artists out there who mostly tour regionally playing small clubs and the like, usually with original projects, or at least playing covers on a level that I can't compete with. Maybe they haven't gotten recognized yet, or they play some form of jazz , but they're scraping by. The idea that a guy like me is taking away any work from them is ludicrous. I can't even comprehend playing at their level, and am unable to make the commitment to go on the road even if someone asked me to. Furthermore, guys like me are the ones showing up to their shows every time they come to town, buying their merch, sending patreon support, or at the least following them on social media and liking every post or buying the gear they endorse. The idea that we are taking away from their ability to support themselves just kills me. We are their #1 demographic.

The other side is the local player who is a "pro", mostly because they don't want to do anything else. They depend mostly on local gigs, don't travel much for whatever reason, and maybe work a side job or two to get by. They play well running the local cover band scene because they've been doing it for 20-30 years, but to an average non-musician out for the night perhaps they couldn't tell the difference if it was me on the gig. We do potentially impact this segment, and I can't say I feel that bad about it. I get 15 minutes a night at best to practice. If you're a pro and can't distinguish yourself from me in chops or professionalism, then I'm not your problem. These are the guys I see hanging at the coffee shop for 2 hours on a Wednesday morning when I'm rushing in to get some caffeine before a business meeting I'm late for. I know this a broad generalization that doesn't apply to many, but there are plenty of them out there, and they are the ones locally at least that I hear complaining the most that weekend warriors like myself are screwing it up for them. I'm sorry but I have zero sympathy for this crowd.

Now what I do agree with that has been covered many times in this thread is the need for some self-respect, and to avoid getting taken advantage of regardless of how little that persons needs or cares about the $. I do take my impact on the health of the scene seriously, and shared here earlier how I walked away from a gig that was blatantly disrespectful to any musician who played it. I don't think this necessarily translates into a minimum $/gig, its more complicated than that. And I think there has been some real good advice in this thread from Chris, Sinclair and a few others to this purpose. So thank you for that.

Alright - Im done with my soapbox speech. Thanks for reading.

Fine, I'm sure bands in India and Thailand earn a lot less than $250 a gig. But last time I looked gas prices were the same in rural areas of America, often more. Health costs the same. Drum head prices, sticks, new drums and cymbals.
So I UNDERSTAND why musicians in rural areas are paid less than big city players, but they should fight for better pay, not except what they are given. That's how all workers achieved better pay, by banding together collectively and fighting for more.
Also, it doesn't have to be personal. For me it's a philosophical debate, how do you value yourself in a time of increased competition, where there is a widening gap between powerful entrepreneurs and the 'workers'.
In the opening post I was asked my opinion on $250 for working on NYE. I gave my opinion. Since then it has not been about this specific person and their specific gig. It's been about whether to stick together and support each other's right to fair pay, or whether if you already have a decent pay check in another job, and you just like to play and have fun, it's ok to be underpaid by bar owners, event promoters etc.
If we are all being under paid to make something happen that's fine, but most of the time the event promoter is heading off on their South Pacific cruise on the 2nd of January, while we're going back to work to fill the car and buy the next batch of drum heads.

 

[Frank Godiva]

I've avoided jumping back into this - but figure I have one point to make that I haven't really seen covered. This isn't really directed at you personally Chris, but you did bring up the sticking together part which I think is a good launching point. I do appreciate and agree with most of what you've contributed throughout this discussion.

Speaking for the weekend warriors here, or at least a chunk of them, I'd like to try and express our perspective and why conversations like this rub us the wrong way. Music for me has always been one of my #1 loves, where I get solace both from attending live shows, as well as occasionally getting to perform. For various reasons, I was not able to make it the focus of my career. Instead I find myself in my mid to late 40s, the sole bread winner responsible for supporting my wife and young daughter. I have a good professional day job, I work with good people and am paid well after many years of learning my craft, gaining experience and building a solid reputation. But that has lead me to carry a tremendous amount of responsibility, pressure, stress and long hours. Some of the work is rewarding, but most of it these days is the slog one has to deal with when they rise in their organization. Its ever present, even when I'm on "vacation" or sick, and its the biggest challenge in my life to not bring that home and project it on my family. I'm grateful for the opportunity, but it has come at a very real cost.

At the end of the day there is very little time for anything that feeds my soul, or brings me joy outside of the satisfaction of fulfilling my responsibilities. Its ok, I'm just at that point in my life and there is light at the end of the tunnel. But what I do get comfort in is in the 15 minutes on average I get to practice and play music at night. I have a new original group I'm working with but it's slow going. Between all of our commitments we haven't found a time to rehearse for 3 weeks. Soon we'll have our material together enough to start playing some shows, and given the 10-20 close friends we'll probably be able to coerce to show up we are not focused at all on making any real $. For bands like us you can almost think of it that we are lucky we don't have to pay to rent out a local bar to entertain ourselves and our friends for an evening. If we get to get our rocks off on an off night, make a couple $ to pay for heads and a few beers, and put a couple more $ in the pockets of the locals working and running the places than they would normally get on an off-night, then I'll take some pride in that as well.

What really rubs me the wrong way is when I drop in a thread like this and read comments along the lines that guys like me are the problem, the reason that the "pros" can't make a living. Again, I haven't gotten that from you Chris, but there is plenty of that in this thread. It baffles my mind that we get thrown under the bus like that, especially when it's followed up with a call for solidarity and sticking together. Sticking together goes both ways, the folks who have the luxury of making music their passion and core focus could do a lot to encourage and support the rest of us. I used to see that in my town and think it's still out there. I remember my first public gig early in my 20s and we had a huge turnout of friends, including one of the more accomplished local "pros". I remember going up to him during set break and thanking him for coming out and he said something along the lines of "You always come out to my shows and support me, there was no way I was going to miss this".

The way I see it, outside of the top tier successful musicians who make their own terms, the more regional pros we're all focused on fall into two categories. There are the truly talented artists out there who mostly tour regionally playing small clubs and the like, usually with original projects, or at least playing covers on a level that I can't compete with. Maybe they haven't gotten recognized yet, or they play some form of jazz , but they're scraping by. The idea that a guy like me is taking away any work from them is ludicrous. I can't even comprehend playing at their level, and am unable to make the commitment to go on the road even if someone asked me to. Furthermore, guys like me are the ones showing up to their shows every time they come to town, buying their merch, sending patreon support, or at the least following them on social media and liking every post or buying the gear they endorse. The idea that we are taking away from their ability to support themselves just kills me. We are their #1 demographic.

The other side is the local player who is a "pro", mostly because they don't want to do anything else. They depend mostly on local gigs, don't travel much for whatever reason, and maybe work a side job or two to get by. They play well running the local cover band scene because they've been doing it for 20-30 years, but to an average non-musician out for the night perhaps they couldn't tell the difference if it was me on the gig. We do potentially impact this segment, and I can't say I feel that bad about it. I get 15 minutes a night at best to practice. If you're a pro and can't distinguish yourself from me in chops or professionalism, then I'm not your problem. These are the guys I see hanging at the coffee shop for 2 hours on a Wednesday morning when I'm rushing in to get some caffeine before a business meeting I'm late for. I know this a broad generalization that doesn't apply to many, but there are plenty of them out there, and they are the ones locally at least that I hear complaining the most that weekend warriors like myself are screwing it up for them. I'm sorry but I have zero sympathy for this crowd.

Now what I do agree with that has been covered many times in this thread is the need for some self-respect, and to avoid getting taken advantage of regardless of how little that persons needs or cares about the $. I do take my impact on the health of the scene seriously, and shared here earlier how I walked away from a gig that was blatantly disrespectful to any musician who played it. I don't think this necessarily translates into a minimum $/gig, its more complicated than that. And I think there has been some real good advice in this thread from Chris, Sinclair and a few others to this purpose. So thank you for that.

Alright - Im done with my soapbox speech. Thanks for reading.

+1

 

[Whitten]

Alright - Im done with my soapbox speech. Thanks for reading.

Sure, and all taken on board and agreed with.
I admit I was being purposely hardcore and provocative, because I think (overall) it's an interesting debate.
It's not about being paid for any performance. It's also not about part timers versus professionals.
It is about:
1) A commercial NYE event.
2) Learning 45 songs for one gig.
3) $250 pay

At no point does this have anything to do with established bands of amateurs playing a pub gig for no or low money. It is about learning 45 songs to a high standard and playing one gig, on a usually well compensated holiday, where customers are probably paying $350 per couple to attend.
All kinds of workers are offered double pay to work on New Years, Christmas Day etc. That's because it compensates them for sacrificing family time, and it's a way for normally quite low paid people to add to their finances for the lower paid days of the year.

 

[Whitten]

Sorry!
I'm writing too much and not explaining my point well enough.
Why do we have actors unions and musicians unions?

Quote>By the beginning of the 20th century, exploitation had become a permanent condition of an actor's employment. Producers set their own working conditions and pay scale. There was no compensation for rehearsals or holidays and rehearsal time was unlimited.
The emergence of the labor movement changed the face of American Theatre forever.
In the ensuing years, rules were negotiated concerning bonding, which required producers to post sufficient advance funds to guarantee salaries and benefits; minimum salaries; rehearsal pay; restrictions on the employment of foreign actors and protections in dealings with theatrical agents.<

Actors' Equity History

Equity's constitution was drafted by May 1913, and Actors' Equity Association was formally recognized on July 18, 1919 by the American Federation of Labor (later to become the AFL-CIO).

www.actorsequity.org

Creative artist unions are not there to protect professionals from part timers, they are there to protect us ALL from unfair exploitation, long hours, low pay and unfair dismissal.