Have You Ever Spotted Counterfeit Drums?

Vistalite Black

Ludwigs in the Basement
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The folks over at DRUM Magazine (who still owe me the hat that lured me to buy a subscription), have a new article on Counterfeit Drums by an expert who advises that Civil War-era drums made with plywood are likely counterfeit.

Apparently, some folks are also counterfeiting vintage Vistalites! Some look too good to be true!

Given how much I paid for mine (and we're talking in the hundreds of dollars), I wonder why a true counterfeiter would go through so much effort to re-create "vintage" Vistalites currently selling on eBay for $999.

Couldn't these desperadoes be making more cabbage breaking into parking meters? Returning stuff they've shoplifted? Driving a truckload of legal weed to an adjoining state? laws?

It'd be interesting to have the cops show up and tell them, "Yeah, this criminal secretly replaced what I thought were really old shells with brand new ones, arrest him immediately!"


How to Spot Counterfeit Vintage Drums
JUNE 26, 2020

BY ROB COOK


“How can you prove to me that it’s real?”

“Real?”

“Not just made up from some other kind of drum.”

I don’t remember exactly how I responded. This happened about seven years ago, and I can hardly remember conversations from seven hours ago. No problem recalling my reaction, though, because I was insulted and offended. “Right,” I thought to myself, “we are talking about a 1967 Ludwig 12″ x 8″ WMP (White Marine Pearl) going out the door for $45. The lugs, the badge, and the date-stamped interior are distinctively Ludwig. Is there any way in hell that it would be possible for me to buy those parts separately or manufacture them myself, assemble them, and make a profit on the newly created drum?”

What I probably said was, “Look. In my opinion this is not a drum that a person can put together himself and profit by selling it for $45. That’s all I can tell you about this drum.” Either I convinced that I was correct, or sensing that I was about to hang up and refuse to ever do any business with him, the guy said, “Okay,” and we did the deal.

Counterfeiters, you see, are bright enough to have a profit-driven business plan. The more successful ones manage to spend a little, and take in a lot. (The ones who spend a lot and take in only a little get discouraged and seek gainful employment.) The purpose of this column is to sound the alarm that prices of vintage drums have appreciated to levels that have attracted the attention of some of chose clever scam artists. The examples that follow in this column are meant to alert readers to the possibility of drum forgeries. I am not accusing anyone in particular of inappropriate or illegal activity. My lawyer has better things to do.

There has been, in the last two years, an increasing incidence of counterfeit Gretsch round-badge drums, both here and abroad. I was approached at the Chicago Drum Show two years ago by a Japanese visitor who tried to sell me “reproduction” Gretsch round badges. There was a buzz in England a few months ago about a tech in London who was presented with a round badge kit to refurbish. The owner, who had recently purchased the kit for pretty serious money, was shocked to find out that the drums were bogus. The shells were all wrong for the vintage they were purported to be, and were probably not even Gretsch.

Then there was the guy in the western United States who claimed that the only Gretsch drums he was “creating” were being done in the interest of filling out a vintage kit; making a 13″ x 9″ to go with a matching 12″ x 8″, 14″ x 14″, 20″ x 14″, etc. (One thing led to another in that little debacle, and in the end a big-time eBay power-seller got tangled in the controversy and was temporarily booted off the site.)

I recently discussed the increasing incidence of fraudulent historical drums with Jason Dobney, the National Music Museum’s music industry liaison. Dobney has significant expertise in Civil War-era rope drums. (Generally, the vintage drum community leaves these drums to antique dealers, museums, and traders of Civil War memorabilia.) Dobney explained that counterfeit Civil War drums are regularly listed on eBay. Genuine drums of that type are easily worth $4,000 to $10,000, while the ones on eBay are often listed with “buy-it-now” pricing around $1,500. Reasonably certain that there was a deliberate misrepresentation, Dobney convinced the museum to buy one of these drums.

When Dobney placed it in the hands of the museum’s experts, they immediately knew something was wrong. “This drum,” they told Jason, “has been rolled in graphite in an attempt to age it.” They removed the rope, hoops, and heads to find that the shell was plywood, while a genuine drum would have had a solid shell. The final indignity was finding a problem with the list of battles painted on the side of the drum. lt seems the North and the South often used different names for the same battles; this was represented as a Southern drum, but had one battle listed by its Northern name. Although this drum was documented by leading experts as being a forgery, there was no recourse beyond returning it for a refund. By now it has probably been resold to a less knowledgeable buyer, and the seller is producing more.

A great deal of speculation has circulated throughout the vintage drum community as to the possibility of Ludwig Vistalite drums being counterfeited. In particular, a number of kits have come onto the market that are in such immaculate condition that it’s as if they were removed from the factory boxes and immediately put into storage until now.

Every bit and piece appears to be new drums from that era that still have original heads here and there. What’s more, the badges on these eyebrow-raising drums differ from “genuine” Ludwig badges in three respects. Ludwig officials state that the company never produced badges with these departures:

  • On official Ludwig Vistalite badges, the cop of the “U” in USA lines up with the cop of the “g” in Ludwig. On the suspect badges, the cop of the U is lower.
  • The shaded area for the serial number on official badges parallels the right edge of the badge. On the suspect badges, the cop right edge of the shaded area swerves back toward the vent hole.
  • On vintage Vistalite kits, the right edge of the badge has a rough area where the badge was broken off the strip it came on. The suspect badges are smooch all the way around. They are clearly individually diecut instead of “stripped.”
Keep in mind that there is no way to restrain a counterfeiter from correcting flaws such as these on future recreations. So how do you detect the counterfeits? Well, if you’re not an expert, you’d best enlist the aid of one. In the meantime, secure a money-back guarantee. It helps to have the pedigree for the drum, proof of original ownership, etc., but keep in mind that even those papers can be falsified. And finally, after all is said and done, the old adage is relevant: if a deal looks too good to be true, it probably is.

Rob Cook is the proprietor of Rebeats Vintage Drum Products. He has written numerous books related to vintage drums and has consulted on the topic for many of the nation’s top museums.

 

mikesdrums

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Interesting article. I know that several years ago Vistalite kits that were in less common colors, especially green, started getting attention and bringing pretty big prices. Then, suddenly, pristine green Vistalites were all over eBay.
 

Tornado

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Today, there is no product too niche or too inexpensive to have counterfeit copies. Even brand new gear with nice machine made packaging is counterfeit. It's to the point that I just won't buy used for a lot of things now. I'll never buy a used mic off of ebay or Craigslist. Probably not ever unless I knew the seller.
 

NobleCooleyNut

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There was a certain devious seller from Coburg Ontario Canada that was “reproducing” Rogers kits a number of years back . He was also doing wood Dynasonics and even fooled Harry Cangany into buying one . Once Harry had it in his hands he realized it was a fake and outed the seller . The same seller had a WMP Rogers Louie Bellson kit for sale which was also proven to be fake .
This seller tried to friend me on Facebook and when I asked him if he was the same person that sold Harry Cangany the bogus Dynasonic he cursed me out and blocked me . Not that I was upset about it .
This seller has since stopped the bogus Rogers sales and has turned his attention to buying DW and Sonor kits for peanuts and selling them for nice profits . The kits stay up on Kijiji a long time because they are priced pretty high but he eventually offloads them .
 

GiveMeYourSmallestSticks!

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There was a certain devious seller from Coburg Ontario Canada that was “reproducing” Rogers kits a number of years back . He was also doing wood Dynasonics and even fooled Harry Cangany into buying one . Once Harry had it in his hands he realized it was a fake and outed the seller . The same seller had a WMP Rogers Louie Bellson kit for sale which was also proven to be fake .
This seller tried to friend me on Facebook and when I asked him if he was the same person that sold Harry Cangany the bogus Dynasonic he cursed me out and blocked me . Not that I was upset about it .
This seller has since stopped the bogus Rogers sales and has turned his attention to buying DW and Sonor kits for peanuts and selling them for nice profits . The kits stay up on Kijiji a long time because they are priced pretty high but he eventually offloads them .
I see his postings all the time on my local Kijiji. This backstory helps to explain a lot, as his ads and my brief interaction with the seller (never met or bought anything from him though) have always raised some serious red flags in my head. Always nice to reaffirm that my gut feelings are usually correct, and to continue to trust them.
 

DolFan54

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I had a 1950’s George Way red sparkle 10x14 parade drum cut down by Jack Lawton to 4.5x14 to represent the ever elusive Casino Model. I purposely put a Camco economy strainer and butt on the drum. Those were never on any George Way drums and were only used during the Camco era.

Well apparently the strainer was lost in translation as Jack’s work was too good. Every collector I showed it to thought it was the real deal!
 

RogersLudwig

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I see his postings all the time on my local Kijiji. This backstory helps to explain a lot, as his ads and my brief interaction with the seller (never met or bought anything from him though) have always raised some serious red flags in my head. Always nice to reaffirm that my gut feelings are usually correct, and to continue to trust them.
What is the sellers name? Never mind. I found the thread https://www.drumforum.org/threads/buyer-beware.79259/
 

Rich K.

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Maxwell recently advertised a Ludwig Vistalite set that I'm pretty sure is one of those RCI fakes.
 

Bri6366

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With all of the major drum manufacturers now in China, I'm sure plenty of brand name drums are counterfeit. Probably 50% if the drums in China and a good amount throughout Asia. There is probably a factory down the street from Yamaha that has copied their molds exactly.
 

Dumpy

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With all of the major drum manufacturers now in China, I'm sure plenty of brand name drums are counterfeit. Probably 50% if the drums in China and a good amount throughout Asia. There is probably a factory down the street from Yamaha that has copied their molds exactly.
That was exactly why I did not outsource to China for bike stuff 20 years back. I knew there would be knock-offs.
 

Jazzcrimes

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I am extremely hesitant to buy a vintage kit without seeing it in person first for exactly this reason. I’m convinced this occurs more than people suspect. Three groups here:
  1. the actual fraudsters
  2. the “honest” sellers who believe they have a correct vintage kit - but have absolutely no way to claim that (i.e. they bought it used, they are not an expert, they have no providence Provenance to claim the kit is correct).
  3. an extension of #1, the vintage dealers who are way too willing to pass off a kit as correct when it has some tell tale signs that it’s not. This is a particularly problematic group.
 
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hsosdrum

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Providence: Protective care coming from God or nature

Provenance: Documentation of the ownership or origination of an antique or work of art

An important distinction when talking about old stuff (like me...)
 

frankmott

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It depends on your definition. Are we talking about just vintage drums? Way back in the late 80's, when I was working music retail for a fairly reputable dealer in Akron, OH, customers would want to trade in their "Pearl" drum-sets. In reality, they were no-name kits (where there might be a sticker in the box, might not), and the less-than-reputable dealer across town would simply put a Pearl logo head on the BD and tell the customer it was a Pearl. It happened on several occasions. This was when Pearl Export kits were selling like crazy. I once blew through 50 in one month.

I had to be the one to tell the poor victim that his "Pearl" kit that he paid $500 for six months earlier wasn't really a Pearl, and was worth about $50 on trade.

So yes, I have identified plenty of counterfeit drums.
 
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Malc

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I bought my Premier Resonators as a shell pack in 1990,when they would've been less than 10 years old and even now feel that they may not be 100% genuine. The main reasoning is that I believe that the toms should have plinth badges on both sides of the shell whereas mine just has the single flat P and resonator badges. They do all have the liners but the toms also have short lugs,where I think they should be the long ones?
In reality it doesn't matter as I've been playing them for 30 years and I appreciate that Premier did have a habit of using whatever was lying around when building drums at one point.
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Dumpy

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I bought my Premier Resonators as a shell pack in 1990,when they would've been less than 10 years old and even now feel that they may not be 100% genuine. The main reasoning is that I believe that the toms should have plinth badges on both sides of the shell whereas mine just has the single flat P and resonator badges. They do all have the liners but the toms also have short lugs,where I think they should be the long ones?
In reality it doesn't matter as I've been playing them for 30 years and I appreciate that Premier did have a habit of using whatever was lying around when building drums at one point. View attachment 456719 View attachment 456720 View attachment 456721 View attachment 456722
Premier did literally build with whatever they had. They were built during the time of the Yamaha takeover, as well. I think what you have is in the “specifications subject to change at any time without notification” rather than counterfeit. As long as they have the inner shell, you’re good.

I always lusted after a set of pink or turquoise Resonators.
 

frankmott

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Premier did literally build with whatever they had. They were built during the time of the Yamaha takeover, as well. I think what you have is in the “specifications subject to change at any time without notification” rather than counterfeit. As long as they have the inner shell, you’re good.

I always lusted after a set of pink or turquoise Resonators.
Like a lot of suspected counterfeits, I can't imagine anyone going to the trouble. Often it seems it would be more expensive to make the counterfeit -- like printing fake one dollar bills.
 

Dumpy

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Like a lot of suspected counterfeits, I can't imagine anyone going to the trouble. Often it seems it would be more expensive to make the counterfeit -- like printing fake one dollar bills.
I always tended to find Resonators where they couldn’t get the inner shell back in. But they always had the clip and the inner shell LOL

Most counterfeiting is for easy to fake items. And this would not qualify. If you could fake a Resonator, you are a true craftsperson. I would think Vistalites would be the easiest and most desirable to counterfeit
 


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