High Hat ID Help please?

wraub

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I picked up a set of 13" high hats with no marks, ink, or stamps that I can see, I'm hoping someone here can help. :)

Pics-






The lighter one is 550 grams, the heavier one is 600 grams.
Opinions?

Thanks. :)
 

JazzDrumGuy

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Can I see close ups of the bell? I am guessing modern cheap imports. Do they sound like splash cymbals? I got duped years ago buying a set of "1950's A's" that turned out to be junky. They were cheap, and I found a use for them, but not as advertised of course. About 615g/673g.......
 

Cliff DeArment

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Looks just like a pair I got at Guitar Center. They had a sale, a package of 13" hats and a 16". They had a big lot of them from China, maybe 50 plus sets in the bin. Quite nice for what they are. I use them for effects, wash, woosh, etc. Heard all of them and picked the ones I liked. Best part... $15! Too hard to walk away at that price. Should have gotten more.
 
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wraub

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They sound washy and old-school, like the hats on older jazz and classic rock records. Searching youtube the closest sounding 13" hats were similarly weighted 50s Zildjians. I know these definitely aren't that, but I didn't expect them to be. ;)
I kinda figured they weren't anything special, but they were $20 so I took a chance, and I think they sound pretty okay. Definitely a useful sound.

Pics asap.
 
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cymbal.wiki

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I'd agree with Chinese origin. Once upon a time I started a checklist for identifying cymbals with no ink stamps or pressed in die stamps. It began with:

List of companies/countries which don't always put pressed in trademark die stamps on their cymbals regularly, so once any ink has gone you are on your own. Yes the Italians sometimes use trademark die stamps but there are plenty which don't.

Italy (UFIP, Tosco)
China

List of companies/countries which almost always (as in > 99.9%) put pressed in die stamps on their cymbals.

Zildjian (US, Canada, Turkey)
Sabian
Paiste
Meinl
Myriad Turkish Brands (I can't even keep up with them all)
Japanese
Brazil (not so sure about Brazil but we don't see cymbals from there much...)
Miscellaneous European cymbals of yesteryear
British cymbals of yesteryear

I'm happy to receive examples of cymbals which don't follow these rules. Some day (always some day) this will all get written up in the wiki but it is a low priority project compared to some others I have on the go.

Here is an example of lathing on an Italian cymbal which doesn't have a pressed in trademark die. In this case we could identify it as Italian because it still had ink. Features noted are the blue arrows which point to places where there was a pause in the lathing pass which leaves a ring. There is a bit of that in the mystery hats, but the presence of that doesn't mean Italian on its own as this can occur on cymbals from other regions. The red oval shows a slight hard to see surface effect which is lathe chatter. I can see that in your hats as well. But once again that can be found in cymbals from other regions.

ItalianLathing.jpg


Another global test for origin is to measure the diameter accurately. That picks up differences between countries which target metric sizes and those which target inches. In this situation where we are distinguishing Chinese from Italian that doesn't assist because they both tend to be slightly undersized due to metric diameter targets...something these two countries of origin share with Turkey.

*** hmmm, my image disappeared when I added the info about diameter. I'll try again***
 
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wraub

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Great info, as always. Thanks. :)

As far as size, they measure 13.25", if that helps at all. I can take more pics, just tell me of what and how to frame them. I've taken a couple of the bell(s), but I don't know what would help most.

I'd agree with Chinese origin. Once upon a time I started a checklist for identifying cymbals with no ink stamps or pressed in die stamps. It began with:

List of companies/countries which don't always put pressed in trademark die stamps on their cymbals regularly, so once any ink has gone you are on your own. Yes the Italians sometimes use trademark die stamps but there are plenty which don't.

Italy (UFIP, Tosco)
China

List of companies/countries which almost always (as in > 99.9%) put pressed in die stamps on their cymbals.

Zildjian (US, Canada, Turkey)
Sabian
Paiste
Meinl
Myriad Turkish Brands (I can't even keep up with them all)
Japanese
Brazil (not so sure about Brazil but we don't see cymbals from there much...)
Miscellaneous European cymbals of yesteryear
British cymbals of yesteryear

I'm happy to receive examples of cymbals which don't follow these rules. Some day (always some day) this will all get written up in the wiki but it is a low priority project compared to some others I have on the go.

Here is an example of lathing on an Italian cymbal which doesn't have a pressed in trademark die. In this case we could identify it as Italian because it still had ink. Features noted are the blue arrows which point to places where there was a pause in the lathing pass which leaves a ring. There is a bit of that in the mystery hats, but the presence of that doesn't mean Italian on its own as this can occur on cymbals from other regions. The red oval shows a slight hard to see surface effect which is lathe chatter. I can see that in your hats as well. But once again that can be found in cymbals from other regions.

View attachment 488037

Another global test for origin is to measure the diameter accurately. That picks up differences between countries which target metric sizes and those which target inches. In this situation where we are distinguishing Chinese from Italian that doesn't assist because they both tend to be slightly undersized due to metric diameter targets...something these two countries of origin share with Turkey.

*** hmmm, my image disappeared when I added the info about diameter. I'll try again***
 

K.O.

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My first thought was something out of Wuhan. Probably pretty cheap for the original purchaser but that doesn't necessarily mean they won't sound okay. A lot of them don't sound great but there are some gems to be found.
 

cymbal.wiki

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Great info, as always. Thanks. :)

As far as size, they measure 13.25", if that helps at all. I can take more pics, just tell me of what and how to frame them. I've taken a couple of the bell(s), but I don't know what would help most.
Measured across the bottom? Or across the top and including the bell? Measuring including the bell adds a little bit and muddies the waters.

And a slight addendum to my original checklist to keep things up with the play. More recently manufacturers have moved to laser stamping not pressing in bits of metal. I've now seen that technology roll out to Turkey (Agop, Bosphorus and possibly others) as well as Zildjian and Paiste and I think China. I haven't noticed what's up with Sabian and Meinl today.
 
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wraub

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Apologies, that was across the top.
13" even across the bottom.

Measured across the bottom? Or across the top and including the bell? Measuring including the bell adds a little bit and muddies the waters.

And a slight addendum to my original checklist to keep things up with the play. More recently manufacturers have moved to laser stamping not pressing in bits of metal. I've not seen that technology roll out to Turkey (Agop, Bosphorus and possibly others) as well as Zildjian and Paiste and I think China. I haven't noticed what's up with Sabian and Meinl today.
 

Cliff DeArment

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Think I got mine in the late 90's. So, very possibly made at the Wuhan plant before they were marking them. Anything hand hammered B20 is worth looking at, if the price is right. I even used them as splashes for Cirque du Soleil (Dralion). They seemed to like em well enough. Has character. There are always good uses for that stuff.
 

itsjjp

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Agree these look to be of Chinese origin. The inks on Wuhan and Agazarian (Guitar Center brand) come off with relative ease. And the old world manufacturing and hand hammering tricks many people into thinking they've found vintage specimens. As was mentioned, a nice, even diameter in inches will rule out any vintage Italian cymbals as those all ran shorter. A 20" old UFIP or Tosco will run around 19 5/8" to maybe 19.75" for example. One easy thing I check is the mounting hole. If it's modern sized and a nice clean hole, then that means it's a modern cymbal regardless of how old-school the rest of it my appear.
 

cymbal.wiki

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Apologies, that was across the top.
13" even across the bottom.
Here's the thing. A nominal 13" cymbal is tricky because 330 mm is 12.99 inches so we're talking a very subtle undersizing. It is easier with some other diameters like nominal 20". I've got a table showing the variation in different diameters and where there is size ink on the cymbal what the "official" target is. It varies by brand and production era. Not every manufacturer agrees on the conversion based on the ink.

I've had an Agop which has ink saying 50 cm / 20" but is actually 50.5 cm which is slightly undersized at 19.98" but a Bosphorus which has ink saying 50 cm / 20" which really is 50 cm so it is more undersized at 19.685". The actual diameters aren't exact from cymbal to cymbal because manufacturing processes mean there is always a residual variation at some level however tiny. And some manufacturers in some eras actually have ink stating the diameter as 50.5 cm / 20" but it is more often simplified to just 50 cm.
 


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