I think you will find Joe is talking a difference in grams but that will be specific to two particular diameter cymbals. The more general form of the relationship (for different diameters) is to use some sort of percentage. Otherwise you get non useful answers. For example trying to find a LSR to go with this 16" 1124g Medium Bounce from the late 50s.Why? I'm contemplating a left side 18" about this much lighter than my main ride, but am worried that it will mostly provide a crash and a quieter/washier ride sound when I like a brasher and louder left side ride. What are you getting out of a 900 gram difference?
The key-Key- to that is- and it's sometimes difficult and takes time and perseverance---is for the second cymbal to Also be a dedicated Ride not Crash parlez-vous?The thought occurred to me that there is a more scientific (or maybe just math) way to choose a left side cymbal. This is to first find a main ride you love and then buy the SAME cymbal in a proportionately smaller diameter and weight for the left side. This way, the two cymbals would have the same overall sound and complement each other, yet differ in pitch, volume, and crashability.
Thanks for the clarification. My 20" Agop Traditional Medium ride is 2470 grams. This strikes me as a bit heavy, but it's what I have and at the moment it's the one that works best for me. It's a nice middle-of-the-road ride that handles everything without annoying me.Both Rides may be the key.
900 between a 22 and 19. Both Rides. Sorry I just threw that out wasn't clear.
What weight is your 20 again? and you want/are looking at/for/ an 18 correct correct?
Oh no. Care to post the other curves? I'd be especially interested in the curve for crash/rides. Also, if there's an understandable way to explain it, I'm curious why the curves are different for different cymbal styles.I think you will find Joe is talking a difference in grams but that will be specific to two particular diameter cymbals. The more general form of the relationship (for different diameters) is to use some sort of percentage. Otherwise you get non useful answers. For example trying to find a LSR to go with this 16" 1124g Medium Bounce from the late 50s.
View attachment 408573
View attachment 408574
or a main ride to go with the 16" Medium Bounce on the left.
BTW that graph of predictions from the three models is for ride cymbals. There are different curves for Crash, Crash Ride, and Ping Ride.
This is a fascinating recommendation that I really appreciate. Yeah, I know the Sultans, having briefly owned a pair of the hats (and liked them), but I never would have thought of an 18" Sultan in my situation. I know from other of your posts that you know cymbals well, so I'm going to listen to the Sultans. Thanks again.I think you're on the right track. Taking your info Istanbul what model? ok Traditional Medium 2470 I would...based on my experience recent experience and a darn good roll of the Dice Recommend. An 18" Sultan. Yes. The one "with the Rings" on top. If you find one marked "Jazz Ride" jump on it be wary -even of- the Thin crashes (I might be wrong- but doubt it) They -Sultan- will "open up" but they won't go too far.....One marked " medium" ok..but I recommend an 18" Sultan I recommend (free no charge..Used second hand low price..
I haven't graphed them yet. But the crash ride data goesOh no. Care to post the other curves? I'd be especially interested in the curve for crash/rides. Also, if there's an understandable way to explain it, I'm curious why the curves are different for different cymbal styles.
There are few designated 18" rides overall these days, that's the problem. Both Istanbul branches have the Mel Lewis /Legend 19", which isn't really brash, but works well. Agop also has the Mel lewis 1982 series with an 18" crash ride, most are around 1600g I think. One of those might be the ticket.I'm using an 1838 gram 18" old A as left side now, which although the relative weight is in the ballpark, is overpoweringly loud as a crash and not the greatest alternative ride either. I think it's the design of the cymbal rather than the size and weight.
... I think I want brasher ride sound on the left.
Maybe I'm looking for a horse of a color that doesn't exist. I'm quite familiar with thinner 18" left side cymbals that both crash and ride well, but the ride sounds are quieter and washier than I want. In theory, an 18" Istanbul in the 1900+ gram range would give me the different colored horse I want, and I can't see how that weight wouldn't crash. My 2470 gram 20" crashes OK at loud volumes. Wouldn't a 1970 gram 18" cymbal from the same family crash proportionately as well while providing a brasher ride sound? I would think so. But getting an 18" Istanbul this heavy is a real risk as well as hard to find. What would an 18" Istanbul at say 1500-1600 grams do?
Thanks. Without examining it in detail, it looks like the crash/ride distribution is all lighter than the ride distribution. That makes sense, since the crash/ride is a hybrid. I suppose the full picture would require including the crash distribution alongside the other two to try to figure out what's going on overall, but I'll leave that up to you.I haven't graphed them yet. But the crash ride data goes
From memory the sequence is the same but offset by 100g from the ride sequence at the 13" start. So 630g for the crash ride rather than 730g for the ride. You can use the original graph but go down 1 inch to get your weight for a crash ride, and 2 inches to get a suggested crash weight.
What is promising to me about the P15R model isn't the exact weights it produces but that the general approach offers a nice way to make it easy to use and easy to integrate all the information in one place. I'm still working on checking the estimated weights out against all the weights for specific diameters and models I've got in my database (which span a few decades). Like that late 50s 16" Medium Bounce (which is a ride) I showed before. Then I also want to see what adjustments might be needed for a similar model to work on Paiste, Sabian, K Zildjian Istanbul, other modern Turkish brands, etc.
The name P14R for the model comes from it being percentage based where each increasing inch of diameter is associated with increment of about 14 to 15 percent on the previous diameter. The weight displayed is also rounded (and or bumped up -- not sure yet) to end up with the nice even numbers you see. Somebody else came up with the model based on A Zildian cymbals and I've been investigating how it performs relative to the Allometric and Ratio of Areas methods. I've also been trying to reproduce the calculations working back from the rounded/bumped up results.
What I'm pairing by way of rides:
22" Lauritsen 2489g with a 20" Lauritsen at 1730g
22" Paiste Trad Medium Light at 2840g with a 20" Paiste Trad Medium Light at 2162g
21" Paiste Silver Mellow at 2504g with an 18" Paiste Extra Light at 1290g
20" Zildjian mid 50s LS2 at 2318g with an 18" 60s Zildjian crash at 1240g
but I've got other options for either a LSR or somehting more crashy. Not all fit the expected patterns.
I'm finding this too. Most 18" cymbals are labeled crashes, but this raises the question of whether they're designed differently than rides or just have different ink on them. I fear that it could be either. Since it's hard to know when shopping online, a lot of sound files displaying both the crash and the ride are crucial. Unfortunately, there often aren't many and sometimes aren't any. I'm not buying based on a label even if I do know the weight!There are few designated 18" rides overall these days, that's the problem.
Is there a reason you're not looking at Mehmets? I'm finding more of them for sale than Agops, often at lower prices, and understand that similar cymbals made by each company are close to the same.(Youre' of course welcome) but here's a Problem I see (not fatal..) The price of used Agops is not as let's say liberal as "that other brand from Turkey (starts with a 'B" ) I did a quick search thru ebay and reverb and came up with No used 18 Agop (beside some lower lines but even they were new and expensive) So unless a friend has an 18" Agop to help you out- I see u may be in a bit of an Agop box (The "B" brand used are plentiful, variety, & a steal sometimes)
So...keep looking, there was video of an 18" Sultan Crash on Reverb didn't think it was what you/me/the other guy/ would want in a Ride. (you can search it It's a Crash dances too much to ride on imo) (same as any brand would respond(being) built as a crash)
How crashes are made different than Rides. Would someone like to tackle that.ride rather than a crash, so I naturally wonder if it's different from the crashes and if so how
The history of the weight scaling research explains more about the situation as far as I'm concerned. Once upon a time LuvMyLeedy on Cymbalholic came up with some weight ranges for 22" cymbals and the name of that weight category. The table wasThanks. Without examining it in detail, it looks like the crash/ride distribution is all lighter than the ride distribution. That makes sense, since the crash/ride is a hybrid. I suppose the full picture would require including the crash distribution alongside the other two to try to figure out what's going on overall, but I'll leave that up to you.
I get what you're saying about P14R but don't understand the rationale for departing from the area method (unless the departure is a fudge factor attempting to offset the effects of the bells). I assume the allometric method is also a departure with a rationale I don't understand. But then I don't need to understand. It's interesting that there are these different methods out there.
Also interesting is that you aren't pairing cymbals of analogous weights and a dimensions. That's still the player's decision. Do we even want cymbals that match in these ways? Maybe we don't.
Ah, I've myself pondered what I now gather is allometry when mulling the ratio of people's heights and weights. They aren't directly proportional. I've wondered why and suspected that there must be a different formula operating, just didn't know what it is. Anyway, I see what you're saying about needing allometry for cymbals too.The history of the weight scaling research explains more about the situation as far as I'm concerned. Once upon a time LuvMyLeedy on Cymbalholic came up with some weight ranges for 22" cymbals and the name of that weight category. The table was
1900 - 2100 Extra Light
2100 - 2300 Light
2300 - 2500 Med Light
2500 - 2800 Medium
2800 - 3100 Med Heavy
3100 - 3500 Heavy
3500 and up Very Heavy
I don't know if it was validated by getting weight for actual cymbals with model ink. I don't know how large a sample of cymbals they were working from. I don't know if they were just talking "ride cymbals" and had explicitly excluded crashes and crash rides. I don't know if the sample included different brands and different production eras. I don't know if they even considered whether a single table was useful to represent such disparate cymbals as old Ks from the 1940s, A Zildjians from the 1960s, A Zildjians from the 1990s, UFIP, Paiste, etc.
The table caught on and the peeps started asking versions of the question I quoted above: what are the ranges for a 20"? Or an 18"? Somebody proposed the ratio of areas method and it caught on. It became available as an online calculation and is preserved here
in the Cymbalholic color scheme.
One of the problems is that it produces ranges which aren't simplified and these became gospel. So for a 20" if your cymbal is
1901 - 2066 Med Light
2066 - 2314 Medium
And don't get me started on the rookie statistician mistake of having the end of one category match the beginning of the next category. They should probably be more like
1900 - 2060 Med Light
2061 - 2315 Medium
You can verify that the online calculator is implemented with non overlapping ranges and does use 2061 for the lower bound of 20" Medium.
Nobody ever said that the calculations were to provide an answer to pairing up two ride cymbals of different diameters to get a contrasting or harmonious LSR.
The next exploratory improvement was a modification to the ratio of areas based on the observation that the ratio of areas method didn't give accurate results in terms of cymbals having a similar sound and feel when applied to different diameters. You can read up on allometry here
The main reason for using allometry with cymbals is that the thickness of a cymbal has to scale a bit with increasing diameter otherwise the cymbal would behave (and sound) too different. This introduces certain a bit of non linearity into the model. The estimates for the coefficients came from a series of Bos cymbals at different diameters so they were within one Brand. Again I didn't do the original research, but I've used the model. If you go back to that graph you will see that larger diameters get relatively heavier compared to the ratio of areas. That's the thicker metal at work for larger diameters. For smaller diameters the Allometric model is a little thinner than the corresponding ratio of areas.
If you compare this to the P15R method, smaller diameters are the same as the Allometric model but P15R gets "carried away" at larger diameters and gives increasingly heavier weights. How much more "carried away"? And is it closer to what we actually find on cymbals? Nobody really knows yet. This is one of the reasons I started collecting weights on cymbals with model ink. I've got many thousands of data points across many brands, production eras, etc. but I've been working on other things. There is a place reserved for this in Cymbal Wiki for when I get to it.
Thanks, but actually the last sentence doesn't follow from the first two. The issue of taper is said to distinguish crashes from rides, but we aren't told which one tapers more. Instead we're given an example of a medium-thin ride tapering a lot, though weight in relation to taper wasn't mentioned. Maybe earlier on these issues are clarified, but I can make no sense out of this last sentence and have no idea why it's even in the paragraph.How crashes are made different than Rides. Would someone like to tackle that.
Go from the beginning a Historical perspective. I'm a little exhausted atm. and chose to relax. View attachment 408691
Don't let that last sentence confuse you. as much as it could..
There are medium-thin "rides" that are near identical thickness at the cup as at the edge . Generally you see, it's Taper (build) that lends to lead lean either Ride or Crash