How Different Should Your Left Side Ride Be?

Johnny K

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Mel is making me sad. I love my 60's stamp 22" Avedis. I like it as much as my 20" K Custom Dry, maybe more (Mel says all cymbals should ride and crash) since I can crash the old 22" pie. I played an old 22" K at Maxwell's, but I just cant see dropping 1500 bucks on one. The old Avedis cost me a whopping 165 dollars.

I have recently revamped my kit setup recently to be simple: kick, snare, floor tom, 60's stamp Avedis 14" hats & 22" ride on the right, and an early 'oughts 18" K Fast Crash on the left. This works really good. The K Fast has really nice bell and if you dont smash it, you can ride it. Having less things to hit forces me to do more with less. I like this.
 

JDA

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Thanks, but actually the last sentence .
crashes will have more taper . Rides will have less. In regard to last sentence- "the ratio"...
Medium -thin Rides will have the most extreme- ratio- of taper. I don't even know why they included that ; that's why I said don't bother with it. Main point is Rides have less taper so that they hold the beat "the ride"... and don't crash/ open/ wide/ with each stroke. There's other factors i'm sure but that is a main one. Taper.
 
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Old Drummer

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crashes will have more taper . Rides will have less. In regard to last sentence- "the ratio"...
Medium -thin Rides will have the most extreme- ratio- of taper. I don't even know why they included that ; that's why I said don't bother with it. Main point is Rides have less taper so that they hold the beat "the ride"... and don't crash/ open/ wide/ with each stroke. There's other factors i'm sure but that is a main one. Taper. Lack of (ride qualities) or plenty of (actual crash splash qualities).
OK, this is what I suspected about taper. In general, rides have more meat than crashes, and one way to get this difference is taper. Though I guess taper is a little different from weight alone, since thicker and thinner cymbals could be made with the same taper. Add taper to the aspects of cymbal design I don't know about.

The medium-thin ride taper seems to me the logical taper for a crash/ride too, or am I missing something?

Also, although I believe Zenstat has pointed out that manufacturers have been distinguishing crashes from rides for eons, am I wrong in suspecting that drum set drummers paid less attention to this distinction prior to around the 1970's and 1980's than they have since? It just seems to me that in the "old days" drummers didn't have as many (or any) dedicated crashes, whereas nowadays a dedicated crash is deemed essential and lots of drummers have multiple dedicated crashes.
 

Johnny K

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I think stick choice is also important too. I get much different dynamics on the kit when I switch between Bopworks Art Blakey 8d's and Vic Firth Buddy Rich's. The Blakey's are just awesome for playing jazz and the Buddy's are great for blues.
 

Old Drummer

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Thanks for the clarification. My 20" Agop Traditional Medium ride is 2470 grams. This strikes me as a bit heavy, but it's what I have and at the moment it's the one that works best for me. It's a nice middle-of-the-road ride that handles everything without annoying me.

I'm using an 1838 gram 18" old A as left side now, which although the relative weight is in the ballpark, is overpoweringly loud as a crash and not the greatest alternative ride either. I think it's the design of the cymbal rather than the size and weight. Both Agop and Mehmet (I doubt it makes much difference) have several 18" choices in their Traditional lines weighing between under 1300 to around 1650 grams. The prices are pretty low too. Unfortunately, there aren't many sound files and those that exist rarely ride the cymbal, they just crash it. Well OK, pretty much all of them crash decently, but how's the ride? And how would the ride fit with my current one? It seems like the lighter 18" Istanbul cymbals have a quieter, washier ride sound, but as said I think I want brasher ride sound on the left.

Maybe I'm looking for a horse of a color that doesn't exist. I'm quite familiar with thinner 18" left side cymbals that both crash and ride well, but the ride sounds are quieter and washier than I want. In theory, an 18" Istanbul in the 1900+ gram range would give me the different colored horse I want, and I can't see how that weight wouldn't crash. My 2470 gram 20" crashes OK at loud volumes. Wouldn't a 1970 gram 18" cymbal from the same family crash proportionately as well while providing a brasher ride sound? I would think so. But getting an 18" Istanbul this heavy is a real risk as well as hard to find. What would an 18" Istanbul at say 1500-1600 grams do?

It's just all a puzzle, at the moment my old A 18" is OK, and buying cymbals on spec isn't in my budget.
To my admittedly boring personal left side cymbal situation, after banging around on my 18" old A today I decided to keep it in the left side position and not buy a replacement--at least until I run across a deal on a used alternative 18" to try.

As said, the worst thing about my A is how blasted loud the crash is. This was an unpleasant surprise and taught me that volume is perhaps the most difficult thing to assess from sound files. However, the A offers what I call a nice "tap crash," or just a tap on the bow in quiet music for an accent, and I have a 15" crash for a real crash that isn't too loud. Meanwhile, although not great, the A does offer roughly the alternative ride sound I want, and the bell on the thing is flat-out good.

It's not perfect, but I've yet to find a cymbal that is. (My Agop isn't perfect either.) Mostly, I'm cheap. I haven't bought a new cymbal in 40 years. I prefer to buy used for about the same price I can sell the cymbal for if I decide against it, which I often do. All the alternative 18" cymbals I'm considering are new. I'll wait till I find a contender used.

For what it's worth, I paid $100 for the A, including shipping, and that struck me as reasonable. I also purposely chose one on the heavier side, according to my calculations of fit, though did go 50-100 grams heavier than I calculated just because the one I bought was the closest in weight to the weight I calculated that I could find. That was probably a mistake. I also suspect that my calculations veered too heavy to begin with, especially given the different design of the A compared to my Agop. However, the A does come close to delivering as predicted--it's not too bad--and the price was reasonable.
 

Old Drummer

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I think stick choice is also important too. I get much different dynamics on the kit when I switch between Bopworks Art Blakey 8d's and Vic Firth Buddy Rich's. The Blakey's are just awesome for playing jazz and the Buddy's are great for blues.
This could be (and probably is) a separate thread that I would benefit from reading.

For almost as long as I remember, I've only played bargain bin sticks in 7A, and have never understood why drummers pay a lot more for sticks that strike me as the same thing. In the old days, I had several with parts of the tips broken off, and they were fun to play with since I could turn the sticks in my hand to get different cymbal sounds. Then and now I have a few with nylon tips, but I've never really liked those tips. I've also had sticks with different tip shapes, but plain acorn seems best to me.

Anyway, sticks are a realm I know nothing about, and except for fearing that learning about them will cost me money by prompting me to pay retail, I'm curious about them.
 

zenstat

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Also, although I believe Zenstat has pointed out that manufacturers have been distinguishing crashes from rides for eons, am I wrong in suspecting that drum set drummers paid less attention to this distinction prior to around the 1970's and 1980's than they have since?
Dedicated crashes saying CRASH on them appear in the late 50s so not quite eons. :glasses8: Prior to that the Avedis Zildjian company did have some specific models (like the BeBop and Bounce rides) where they mention taper to produce different tones as you play different distances out from the bell. But you need to be careful because sometimes Zildjian say "taper" meaning "curvature of bow" and other times they use "taper" meaning the thinning of the metal. Not helpful. :sad7: Since the 1960s Zildjian have tended to put slightly larger bells on crashes compared to rides. Which bell does also vary with diameter so the real pattern is a little more complex. I don't know how much attention drummers pay to the distinctions. My main concern is trying to document the differences and how to tell once the model ink is gone.

@ JDA is this a Paiste description? The color scheme and style of it makes me think so. I'd like to know when it is from.



The prize for extreme difference between bell and edge thickness usually is awarded to UFIP. That has been true for years (again since at least the 50s) but in more modern times they have used that design formula in their Bell Crash.

Regarding the issue of validating a method, I think ultimately someone ought to concoct some sonic test. Using empirical data from cymbals only tells us the weights of the cymbals we can find (a poor sampling method, since presumably lighter cymbals crack more easily than heavier cymbals) but it doesn't tell us how the different weights sound, much less how different weights sound together. This though is what we want to know. I also doubt that sound is purely subjective. Very little in life is really subjective, and usually when people believe something is subjective, that only means that they're unaware of the objective bases for their opinions. Surely there's some sort of objective way to measure cymbal sounds, and thus calculate their sounds relative to one another. Mind, my guess is that an objective measurement won't lead to one right cymbal matching. I bet there are multiple matches that sound fine. However, I bet there are more matches that sound bad than sound good. Needed though is some way to assess cymbal sound objectively, and I have no idea what that way is.
Working on it. I've done similar work in the past for other sounds, but I just haven't done this for cymbals yet. The main driver of this is modelling cymbal sounds given various parameters. Answering questions like: what is the effect of a brilliant finish versus larger tonal grooves? How does perceived pitch change if you remove 100g from a cymbal. I don't expect it will help people trying to buy a cymbal via the internet because they won't be able to make all the measurements. A cymbal in the hand is worth many on the web.

There is no evidence that lighter cymbals crack more easily than heavier ones, and based on materials science and physics weight is not expected to be the main factor.
 

Old Drummer

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There is no evidence that lighter cymbals crack more easily than heavier ones, and based on materials science and physics weight is not expected to be the main factor.
Really, no evidence that lighter cymbals crack more easily? Maybe what's going on is that crashes tend to be lighter and drummers hit them harder, but for all I know this isn't true either. Oh well, let's defer to the science.
 

JDA

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@ JDA is this a Paiste description? The color scheme and style of it makes me think so. I'd like to know when it is from.
Zildjian. Z>Time. Special Catalog Edition 2001
I signed up for the Z-Club (I think I was playing Istanbuls.... and I'd get these thru the mail. At the "turn of the century" when the internet was sorta still new and Zildjian still had a paper advertising dept.. (lol). And........I kept them; ) every last one of them./.....
 
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Johnny K

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This could be (and probably is) a separate thread that I would benefit from reading.

For almost as long as I remember, I've only played bargain bin sticks in 7A, and have never understood why drummers pay a lot more for sticks that strike me as the same thing. In the old days, I had several with parts of the tips broken off, and they were fun to play with since I could turn the sticks in my hand to get different cymbal sounds. Then and now I have a few with nylon tips, but I've never really liked those tips. I've also had sticks with different tip shapes, but plain acorn seems best to me.

Anyway, sticks are a realm I know nothing about, and except for fearing that learning about them will cost me money by prompting me to pay retail, I'm curious about them.
I'll let someone else do that. LOL. Sticks are like guitar picks and everyone has an opinion on why they use what they use. I like to experiment so i've gone thru alot of different brands and types of sticks. I dont think I have every paid more than 13 bucks for a pair of sticks. Except for the Bopworks once you factor in shipping and handling. They make a great stick. I dont like the sound of nylon tips on my cymbals. I only use them when I play my quiet kit with the mesh heads and Zildjian L80's. All those holes are hard on wood tips. I have a pair a Buddy's that got reduced to dart tips from playing them constantly on the L80's and a few Jack DeJohnettes that have cracked off tips. Low Volume cymbals are hard on sticks. I have also discovered by experimenting over the course of the summer of playing a rubber pad Yamaha E-Kit that VF Benny Grebs work best, for me. It's a hefty 5B stick with small but fat tip. Great rebound off the rubber pads and rubber cymbals.
 

tkillian

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I know I know this is super subjective, and it's all about what I want and what feels right etc. etc.

But I'm looking for YOUR opinion!

I have a 22" K Con Renaissance ride, which I love, and which I bought a few months after getting a great deal on a 20" K Kerope (the orig. version, not the medium). I am using the Kerope as a left side ride (first I've ever had). There definitely is a difference between the two - the K Con is trashier, with a much wider array of sounds available and a really pronounced bell. The Kerope is more buttery - the tone is gorgeous, though more limited. Although it's different, in terms of functionality I feel like it serves much the same purpose. On recordings, for regular ride patterns, I don't hear a huge change - other than spatial placement - when I switch from the K Con to the Kerope, and I'm wondering if I'm wasting real estate (and $ value!) by sticking with this setup. I'm not a pro player (tho am a professional musician - just not on drums) but I've been re-working up my chops over the last year with a predominant interest in jazz and secondary interest in funk. Other cymbals on my rig are a 17" K hybrid crash (which I love) and a stack of 16" Zildjian Oriental trash china and 9" Oriental trash splash (I can access each individually in this setup). I wouldn't really have room to add another cymbal, and I can't help wondering if that left side ride should be something more different and possibly more exotic - maybe something with a rivet? For now, I'm more likely to record (I have a good setup) than gig live.
Interesting. I could never find a left side to match my 22" renaissance ride. Peter Van Nostrand plays a 22" renny as his main ride and whatever is in his left is a great match.
 
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CAMDRUMS

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There are no “shoulds” for this sort of thing. Use what you like for the music you play.
 

JDA

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that's the problem -some- can't find what they like".
don't know where or how to look and or don't know when they already have it
evidently.
 
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Elvis

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Personally, I do a "main cymbal" and an "alternate cymbal".
I figure I can use the other cymbal, most of the time, to sit behind a soloist, like a singer, so I try to make some with less presence, thus my dogged search for the perfect Flat Ride.
...but really, the other cymbal could be anything, depending on what your situation is that night.

Elvis
 

shnootre

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that's the problem -some- can't find what they like".
don't know where or how to look and or don't know when they already have it
evidently.
Well, maybe. I also think sometimes what you like, say in a shop, or on your kit at home, may not equal what you like in practice - in recording or live gigs. So the appeal is made here, where some members have vast amounts of experience from which they can speak (and have, eloquently). As the OP, I’ve had a nagging sense that my two cymbals just aren’t different enough, despite liking them both - and it’s been quite helpful to read and learn from this discussion.
 

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