How Important Are the Ink Logos on Cymbals?

lrod1707

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Should we restart the New Sabian logo discussion again? LOL!!
I wonder how many people would keep those on the cymbals!
 

Mongrel

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I'm more concerned with the reverse-snobbery against label lovers than than that insulting low-ball offer....lol.

Not to mention the "I refuse to give them free advertising" (stick it to the man) label removal....lol. Seriously? Do you cover the label on your soda can when you drink in public? Don't be giving Coke no "free advertising"! Lol

Labels identify brand and model quickly, and can be a indication of whether the cymbal has been polished or not. (I have a couple As and Ks from the 90s that have never been polished and the labels look almost new).

So, yea, kinda lame going THAT low because of faded labels, but let's not act like a faded label model is worth as much as a pristine label model, at least on a common cymbal. They just aren't...

But no need to put down a drum brother either way lol....
 
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dboomer

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Another thought... The most prized and expensive cymbals in the world (old Turkish Ks, Spizz, etc) don’t have logos painted on.
 

REF

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I'm more concerned with the reverse-snobbery against label lovers than than that insulting low-ball offer....lol.

Not to mention the "I refuse to give them free advertising" (stick it to the man) label removal....lol. Seriously? Do you cover the label on your soda can when you drink in public? Don't be giving Coke no "free advertising"! Lol

Labels identify brand and model quickly, and can be a indication of whether the cymbal has been polished or not. (I have a couple As and Ks from the 90s that have never been polished and the labels look almost new).

So, yea, kinda lame going THAT low because of faded labels, but let's not act like a faded label model is worth as much as a pristine label model, at least on a common cymbal. They just aren't...

But no need to put down a drum brother either way lol....
No "reverse snobbery" here. Some see value in sound. Some see it in labels. So, if we change bass drum heads and do not get a company sticker to put on it, is that bass drum actually worth less? It may sound better than stock heads. If I remove all the medallions to recover the drums, are the lugs not enough to show what company they are? The drums are not worth as much without medallions? I'm not talking vintage here where those details mean a lot and recovered drums fall short at the get-go for most collectors. I'm talking newer drums and cymbals purchased today. Actually, to be fair to the discussion, I usually take the logos off my clear batter heads, as well. :) You only make a mess on coated heads.

I suppose if those who dislike cymbal labels were going to play their Coke and Pepsi cans the point would be taken. If I buy a bottle of beverage, I drink it and throw it out. We don't play cymbals and throw them out.

Guitars have a small logo on the head stock. Keyboards maybe have a small logo in a corner facing the player, otherwise it's on the body rib facing the audience. Maybe something underneath. I never see big labels on guitars or keyboards facing the player.

I understand cymbal makers wanting their products labeled just like drums are. Bass drum head, drum medallions. Cymbals get a stamp punched in. That's no fun. So, put a big label on it. Both sides? Do I need to know and see what cymbal I am using with a huge, garish label in my face, on ten to fifty cymbals before me? Maybe some do. I just feel like a book is all around me, or a bunch of highway signs rising high above the road, not a set of musical instruments.

To each his own, of course. I'd opt out for a label in the underside bell to tell me what it is. I'd leave that alone.

And like some say, their labels have dramatically faded. Some care, some don't. I just fail to see why labels have anything to do with the resale value of a musical instrument, unless it involves collectors that want exact details intact.
 

Tama CW

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Another thought... The most prized and expensive cymbals in the world (old Turkish Ks, Spizz, etc) don’t have logos painted on.
The most prized of the early Turkish Ks are those with complete and perfect "signatures," "mfg labels," and ink stamp/store sticker on them. They may not be the same painted on logo's.....just the next closest thing. I'd bet no one is ripping off labels or scrubbing off ink marks on their old K's. I think the hollow logo Zildjian's on the reverse side are out of the way and mind of anyone playing those. I'd call them tasteful...and I like seeing them. By the 1990's though the logo stamping gets a wee bit cluttered looking.

k istanbul logo 2.jpg
K instanbul 15s 1.jpg
 

JDA

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Another thought... The most prized and expensive cymbals in the world (old Turkish Ks, Spizz, etc) don’t have logos painted on.
but old Ks all- I'm pretty sure all- did have ink. Underneath. Was a Quote on one side and on the the other side directly opposite was the size in inch and cm. and a weight detail. Medium being very common) And I'll theorize this. Those that still have remnant of that ink, sound better, have lived a better life or what ever- but in my small collection i' notice it. I notice a difference
 

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As far as ink on new cymbals when you're looking at one for sale used. The ink can tell you how many "miles" were put on the cymbal; how it was rode hard or not. Sometimes that's nice to know buying second-hand. " Geeze. Looks like new"..or " damn it's been thru the ringer" etc.

removing the labels to me just (sometimes? all the time?) leaves a goddern shadow that looks like h-e- double hockey sticks..
 
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Mongrel

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No "reverse snobbery" here. Some see value in sound. Some see it in labels....
You know what? You're right! That's not "reverse snobbery". That's just plain old *snobbery*!

The insinuation that only some lower class player would care about "labels"....while the *real* players care about sound!

Lol

Because, we all *know* that you can't really care about sound AND enjoy labels!

*snicker*
 

REF

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As far as ink on new cymbals when you're looking at one for sale used. The ink can tell you how many "miles" were put on the cymbal; how it was rode hard or not. Sometimes that's nice to know buying second-hand. " Geeze. Looks like new"..or " damn it's been thru the ringer" etc.

removing the labels to me just (sometimes? all the time?) leaves a goddern shadow that looks like h-e- double hockey sticks..
That is true. Ghosting can take place on certain alloys, especially Paiste cymbals. Most typical B20 I have never had a problem with whatever inks used and removing it. Plus, I can bring cymbals back to brand new shine so, ghosting is not generally an issue for me. The older the cymbal the more prominent the ghost. If it is there, yeah, choice between ghost or black ink. Angles and lighting and reflections can keep ghosting out of sight for the most part.

Again, I'm just questioning the value of a non-vintage musical instrument based on the lack of some ink.
 

JDA

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Well I have it on a fairly new Bosphorus 18" I bought used. Shadow beard..Previous owner removed. And that's not a Paiste. I think removal is ugly (Lol!..and "cheapens" it .

Now, if it's a " Meteor" brass cymbal go ahead knock yerself
 
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REF

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You know what? You're right! That's not "reverse snobbery". That's just plain old *snobbery*!

The insinuation that only some lower class player would care about "labels"....while the *real* players care about sound!

Lol

Because, we all *know* that you can't really care about sound AND enjoy labels!

*snicker*
Hm. Yeah, except I didn't write that those who like labels on their cymbals and like the sound of their cymbals are not real players. Nor did I insinuate it by splitting the difference.

My bottom line is understanding why a musical instrument should be less value because the ink is faded or gone. That was the OP's question. Aside from collectors of vintage instruments, how is a modern musical instrument effected for resale by lack of ink, aside from personal aesthetics for some buyers? As a musical instrument it sounds the same.

I'd have to ask but, I wonder if there are keyboard players who would not purchase a used keyboard because "KORG" was worn off. In the case of an electronic instrument, if a logo were worn off by a lot of handling, and might be surmised the unit has seen a lot of miles, and you might wonder about its integrity. A lower price might be expected.

A cymbal that looks brand new by handling it with care (for those who like a new look), is not effected as a musical instrument because it has no ink on it. It has a manufacturers stamp. It either sounds good to a listener or does not. Ink is then a matter of purely aesthetic preference but, the instrument sounds as good as brand new. No way I would lower the price from its value as a well cared for musical instrument.

Having purchased plenty of cracked cymbals to experiment with, with perfect logos on them, perfect logo condition means little to how the cymbal was treated.
 

cworrick

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I'm not so worried about the brand logos. I wish I'd kept the ink describing the cymbal weight/descriptions. It would make more sense to keep track of the thin/med-thin/med, fast, trash, etc labels for the quick grab and gos. The Cymbal Brands are all laser engraving their names on the cymbals anymore so that doesn't seem like it would need to be on a cymbal twice.
 

REF

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Well I have it on a fairly new Bosphorus 18" I bought used. Shadow beard..Previous owner removed. And that's not a Paiste.
I don't know how it was removed. Unless Bosphorus puts a lacquer finish on their cymbals, spray the ghost and the rest of the cymbal with some ammonia, wipe it down, and then a good window cleaner and the ghost should disappear and the cymbal should shine up fine. Again, the age of the alloy can cause a ghost to be a little tougher to remove but, they come out.

Kind of makes me wonder if cymbal companies should not offer rebranding. They'd probably make quite a bit of money.
 

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The logo applied at the factory is the last step of the workers. (May have been-in some small companies- the guy that had a hand in making it) I want that part of it too. HA!
 

JDA

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In fact you have Istanbul and Bosphorus and maybe other Turkish companies, who seemed to have carried on using (some) same font/ink stampers/ Old K Zildjian used.

The backside of a Bosphorus cymbal is like a Road Map. Everything but the Area Code. ; )
 

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feelyat

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I view a cymbal as a musical instrument as important as someone's violin or cello and have no need to advertise said company after I buy the instrument. Interestingly, stringed instruments are known by their cleft cut outs or the headstock. Luthiers do things to state an instrument is theirs that way.
You mean, like putting their name on them?

violin-labels.jpg
tuners.jpg
SteinwayLogo.jpg
selmer.jpg


Instrument makers have done that for, like, ever. I don't think there's anything special about cymbals.
 

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Tama CW

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My bottom line is understanding why a musical instrument should be less value because the ink is faded or gone. That was the OP's question. Aside from collectors of vintage instruments, how is a modern musical instrument effected for resale by lack of ink, aside from personal aesthetics for some buyers? As a musical instrument it sounds the same.

I'd have to ask but, I wonder if there are keyboard players who would not purchase a used keyboard because "KORG" was worn off. In the case of an electronic instrument, if a logo were worn off by a lot of handling, and might be surmised the unit has seen a lot of miles, and you might wonder about its integrity. A lower price might be expected.....
Sound is one thing. Potential collectability and value is another. Drums with lots of extra holes and wrap cracks can sound as good or better than a perfect vintage drum that has been in a box since the day it was sold. My Slingerland BDP kit has wrap cracks across 3 of the 4 drums. It doesn't bother me as they sound great, and look great from 270 out of 360 deg (I keep the cracks facing inward when set up). But I paid a lot less for them because of those localized cracks. When buying a kit for top dollar, I expect all the bells and whistles: nice badges with "close enough" serial numbers to suggest they were borne together, minimal issues with the wraps or lacquer, nice chrome, original parts, date stamps on the interior shells, tags on the interior if they came that way, original heads with mfg stamps, etc. None of these things affects the sound.....they just drastically affect the value. A drilled and altered Slingerland kit with pitted chrome, mismatched wrap colors can sound great....while selling for 1/3 of the price of a pristine kit. Take your pick along the spectrum. There's a condition-price point for everyone.

In buying ANY collectible (coins, stamps, antiques, guns, duck decoys, etc.) collectors look at them all in the same way. If you think drums are fairly generic and shouldn't change value much from low end to high end....look at US rare coins. A common date Morgan silver dollar (1879-1904) in circulated condition showing 80% of the major designs can be had for $20....it does the job for almost all of us. An uncirculated one showing full mint brilliance is only $40. Yet there are specimens in superb condition that routinely fetch from $700 to $50,000...for the exact same coin that's $20 in typical condition.
 
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shnootre

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Some logos wear off pretty quick. The main logo of my K Con 22 Renny, which I bought in April, is almost completely gone. I liked that logo too. That cymbal also seems to really show its stick marks - it looks quite aged already. I have a 20” Kerope that I bought used, and its logo is perfect and the thing looks like it’s never been hit.

The damn things represent so much investment that it’s hard to always put completely out of your mind how wear will affect resale value. I love em today, but my needs may change. And I know I probably wouldn’t pay top used $ for my renny the way it looks now.
 

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